Deme 013 Development meeting area using Deme 0.2.*-0.3.*, 7/9/2004-1/10/2005:
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subj	author	msgtext	when_posted	in_reply_to	primary_ref_id	num_replies
Welcome	andy	This meeting area will be a continuation of the discussion that happen in the old Pod Internal Development Group. Please go to http://piece.stanford.edu/pod/podint if you would like to see a backlog of our previous discussions.	2004-07-09 10:15:14	0	0	0
Hi todd	andy	Hey Todd, I made you an owner... would you like me to go into the mySQL database and get rid of the incorrect announcement message?	2004-07-09 14:26:57	0	0	1
Sure, thanks. (nm)	todd	------ andy wrote on: 2004-07-09 14:26:57.------ :Hey Todd, I made you an owner... would you like me to go into the mySQL database and get rid of the incorrect announcement message?	2004-07-09 14:42:51	2	0	0
Looks good	brendan	Hi, the more full-featured group management options look great -- keep up the good work folks!	2004-07-10 02:32:14	0	0	0
New Document: "Deme homepage in IE5"	todd	Andrew, here's the homepage as it looks in IE5. Note the horizontal scroll bar. Looks like it's failing to word wrap.	2004-07-14 10:00:12	0	1	0
New Document: "Rhymes with Deme"	todd	Stab at a glossary of Deme-themed terms.	2004-07-14 16:47:38	0	2	0
Discussion Item: "Deme domain"	todd	I'm thinking I should purchase a domain that could eventually serve as the home site for Deme and its network of installations, as opposed to Groupspace.orG. Deme.org and Deme. net are not available. Some possibilities: Demespace, Demenet, Demeworld. Any thoughts, all you Demers?	2004-07-15 15:51:15	0	3	5
alternatively...	todd	"Dream Deme", referring to the mythical perfect Deme of the future, as in, "Yeah... that feature's included in the dream Deme. "	2004-07-15 15:53:48	0	4	0
rhymes?	andrew	How about some of those rhymes... like Demestream.org ------ todd wrote on: 2004-07-15 15:51:15.------ :I'm thinking I should purchase a domain that could eventually serve as the home site for Deme and its network of installations, as opposed to Groupspace.orG. Deme.org and Deme. net are not available. Some possibilities: Demespace, Demenet, Demeworld. Any thoughts, all you Demers?	2004-07-15 18:56:44	7	3	0
Latest update for Todd	andrew	Hi Todd, I think this forum will be a good private place to talk about development. I wanted to let you know that I made the wording fix for guests so that it now says Deme instead of POD on the front page. Additionally, I fixed up the link item type to almost the performance you desire. I think you said that you would like the slim bar with the 'maximize' button for the link to contain the page title. This task is a bit tricky because if its done in PHP then the piece sever would have to download the page directed by the link (if this page were not text, say it were a link to a large image or something else of that nature, this could be problematic... also, dead links would be problems... and they wouldn't be easy to detect without significant lag for the end user). My next thought was to try Javascript to read the title off the page once it loads, but I haven't figured out if javascript is even capible of doing this. The DOM documentation I'm working with doesn't discuss the title, so now I'm looking for alternative sources. Anyway, for now the slim title bar displays the Address of the page being viewed and a little button to maximize the link to a full-featured browser window. I wanted to get a solution up quickly because one of the people in the Sandbox forum noticed the dead back and forward buttons, so I figured it would be best to remedy that problem as fast as possible. Anyway, everything else about the link item type is how you want it, I think... the title and preface is always there for a consistent look and feel. So yea... that's where I'm at. I hope you've caught up on sleep since your miserably long flight. Have a great time in Japan. ~Andrew	2004-07-21 10:37:38	0	0	0
Todd: another update	andrew	Hi Todd, I hope all is well in Japan. I'm posting this update in our Dev forum so that anyone subscribed to this forum can view the progress that I'm reporting. I worked for two days on trying to get popup frames to retain their respective toolbar frames. Visually, it's an easy task, but wiring up all the javascript controls proved quite difficult, so I put that project on the backburner for a bit in until I gained more Javascript experience. So then I moved on to the "project item type" project that we discussed. I've made good progress and many large chunks are completed, but the small details, like wiring up the javascript controls to the msglist and curmsg frames still need work. You can view my progress in my test group at http://www.groupspace.org/dev2/groups/Proj_Tracker_/ The second meeting area contains the most well developed examples, but note that it is still a work in progress. Also, I've spent a lot of time hammering out inconsistancies between Mozilla compatible "Javascript" and the Microsoft-only implementation "JScript." Most of these bugs are gone so projects *should* be viewable by both Mozilla and IE, but no guarantees at this point. So that's my current progress, just FYI. Have some good sushi for me. ~Andrew	2004-07-30 13:03:51	0	0	2
Greetings	todd	Andrew, first, a wording thing on the project tracker dev group - you should correct this: You may cannot view meeting areas unless you are a member of the group. Also, I got a warning after joining the group - it disappeared though before I could capture it. It`s Saturday morning in japan and I return a week from tomorrow. Time flies. Project type looks good - I haven`t gone over all the details, but I like the table options and the javascript is working nicely in IE. I think maybe we should allow multiple handlers if that doesn`t complicate the schema too much. Obviously the UI will need touchup, but I`m pleased with the progress. Good luck on the expanded popups too - we need to solve that eventually. Todd ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-07-30 13:03:51.------ :Hi Todd, I hope all is well in Japan. : :I'm posting this update in our Dev forum so that anyone subscribed to this forum can view the progress that I'm reporting. : :I worked for two days on trying to get popup frames to retain their respective toolbar frames. Visually, it's an easy task, but wiring up all the javascript controls proved quite difficult, so I put that project on the backburner for a bit in until I gained more Javascript experience. So then I moved on to the "project item type" project that we discussed. I've made good progress and many large chunks are completed, but the small details, like wiring up the javascript controls to the msglist and curmsg frames still need work. You can view my progress in my test group at : :http://www.groupspace.org/dev2/groups/Proj_Tracker_/ : :The second meeting area contains the most well developed examples, but note that it is still a work in progress. Also, I've spent a lot of time hammering out inconsistancies between Mozilla compatible "Javascript" and the Microsoft-only implementation "JScript." Most of these bugs are gone so projects *should* be viewable by both Mozilla and IE, but no guarantees at this point. : :So that's my current progress, just FYI. : :Have some good sushi for me. :~Andrew	2004-07-30 18:35:43	11	0	1
Thanks	andrew	Just a quick note: I fixed that "may cannot" wording issue. Should be fine now. I'll start working on implementing multiple handlers once I feel that the version with only one handler is pretty solid. Multiple handlers requires writing a little bit of code to handle expections to my general algorithms, so I want to make sure the original code works first before I handle exceptions. Pending how smoothly debugging goes I might have multiple handlers implemented by the time you get back. And yes, I totally agree that multiple handlers would be a useful feature to implement. The UI is somewhat temporary. I think it needs to look cleaner, and perhaps a few more icons would be useful to break up the large sections of text would be a good idea. UI stuff is easier to do in person where we can sit over a notepad and draw little pictures to get the layout "just right," so perhaps we can do that when you get back. I hope the conference went well. Enjoy the rest of your vacation and I'll see you next week. ~Andrew ------ todd wrote on: 2004-07-30 18:35:43.------ :Andrew, first, a wording thing on the project tracker dev group - you should correct this: : :You may cannot view meeting areas unless you are a member of the group. : :Also, I got a warning after joining the group - it disappeared though before I could capture it. : :It`s Saturday morning in japan and I return a week from tomorrow. Time flies. : :Project type looks good - I haven`t gone over all the details, but I like the table options and the javascript is working nicely in IE. I think maybe we should allow multiple handlers if that doesn`t complicate the schema too much. Obviously the UI will need touchup, but I`m pleased with the progress. Good luck on the expanded popups too - we need to solve that eventually. : :Todd : :------ andrew wrote on: 2004-07-30 13:03:51.------ ::Hi Todd, I hope all is well in Japan. :: ::I'm posting this update in our Dev forum so that anyone subscribed to this forum can view the progress that I'm reporting. :: ::I worked for two days on trying to get popup frames to retain their respective toolbar frames. Visually, it's an easy task, but wiring up all the javascript controls proved quite difficult, so I put that project on the backburner for a bit in until I gained more Javascript experience. So then I moved on to the "project item type" project that we discussed. I've made good progress and many large chunks are completed, but the small details, like wiring up the javascript controls to the msglist and curmsg frames still need work. You can view my progress in my test group at :: ::http://www.groupspace.org/dev2/groups/Proj_Tracker_/ :: ::The second meeting area contains the most well developed examples, but note that it is still a work in progress. Also, I've spent a lot of time hammering out inconsistancies between Mozilla compatible "Javascript" and the Microsoft-only implementation "JScript." Most of these bugs are gone so projects *should* be viewable by both Mozilla and IE, but no guarantees at this point. :: ::So that's my current progress, just FYI. :: ::Have some good sushi for me. ::~Andrew	2004-08-02 14:38:53	12	0	0
Gmail... wow	andrew	Hey, I don't know how extensively you guys use gmail, but have you seen their spell checking feature? It's simply amazing... I wonder if there are open source dictionaries to download (or perhaps dictionary ASPs?) that we could use to implement a feature like their spell checker. Perhaps spelling isn't the most important feature to implement as a part of the "Dream Deme", but it will certainly be necessary at some point in the future. Another design idea picked up from gmail: They have redundant buttons for replying to a message at both the top and bottom of the message. I think Deme is in need of this feature because often when I'm using Deme and I want to respond to a rather long post I find myself searching to find the "Reply to this Post" button. A novice to Deme might not even think to scroll down in the curmsg viewer at all. Just some thoughts... ~Andrew	2004-08-05 13:59:11	0	0	2
Re: Gmail... wow	todd	I agree that redundant buttons are good whenever you might otherwise have to scroll. Spellchecking would be a good feature to add - ideally it could be invoked on any document or comment before posting. ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-08-05 13:59:11.------ :Hey, I don't know how extensively you guys use gmail, but have you seen their spell checking feature? It's simply amazing... I wonder if there are open source dictionaries to download (or perhaps dictionary ASPs?) that we could use to implement a feature like their spell checker. Perhaps spelling isn't the most important feature to implement as a part of the "Dream Deme", but it will certainly be necessary at some point in the future. : :Another design idea picked up from gmail: They have redundant buttons for replying to a message at both the top and bottom of the message. I think Deme is in need of this feature because often when I'm using Deme and I want to respond to a rather long post I find myself searching to find the "Reply to this Post" button. A novice to Deme might not even think to scroll down in the curmsg viewer at all. : :Just some thoughts... :~Andrew	2004-08-05 21:03:47	14	0	1
thoughts on spchk	andrew	I agree with that ideal... at it's core, it should be it's own class with a simple exposed interface. A client of the spellchecker would enter html formatted text and the return value would be the same text with special link tags controlled by javascript to allow the user to select alternate spelling suggestions... I really think gmail nailed it (much better than webmail anyway), so if and when this is implemented, the implementor should study the gmail model to see what they did right. ~Andrew ------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-05 21:03:47.------ :I agree that redundant buttons are good whenever you might otherwise have to scroll. Spellchecking would be a good feature to add - ideally it could be invoked on any document or comment before posting. : :------ andrew wrote on: 2004-08-05 13:59:11.------ ::Hey, I don't know how extensively you guys use gmail, but have you seen their spell checking feature? It's simply amazing... I wonder if there are open source dictionaries to download (or perhaps dictionary ASPs?) that we could use to implement a feature like their spell checker. Perhaps spelling isn't the most important feature to implement as a part of the "Dream Deme", but it will certainly be necessary at some point in the future. :: ::Another design idea picked up from gmail: They have redundant buttons for replying to a message at both the top and bottom of the message. I think Deme is in need of this feature because often when I'm using Deme and I want to respond to a rather long post I find myself searching to find the "Reply to this Post" button. A novice to Deme might not even think to scroll down in the curmsg viewer at all. :: ::Just some thoughts... ::~Andrew	2004-08-06 08:56:14	15	0	0
Project: "Deme 0.3"	todd	These are tasks associated with the next major release of Deme.	2004-08-11 13:10:06	0	5	163
Task: "Uploaded File - Blank Display"	todd	Item display goes blank after an uploaded document file is clicked on. Item display should retain previous info.	2004-08-11 13:17:02	17	5	3
Update: "Uploaded File - Blank Display"	todd	Updated on August 11th, 2004, 13:20 by todd -Category changed from 'No Category' to 'Bug'	2004-08-11 13:20:21	18	5	0
Task: "Disable guest joining"	guest	User Guest should not be able to join a group.	2004-08-11 13:30:45	17	5	5
Task: "Change \\"Link to...\\" for items"	todd	Change "Link to this document", "Link to this discussion item" etc. to "Link to this item" for all item types to get the URL. "Link to this discussion item" appears for projects, which is wrong.	2004-08-11 16:59:58	17	5	2
Task: "Delete tasks from nav bar"	todd	Currently each task in a project appears in the navigation bar for the item display. This will make the nav pulldown too crowded, so I think it should just list the project. Also the item reference in the comments index for each task should not include the name of the task. For now it can include the name of the project, with a letter to correspond with the task, and the task name in the subject of the announcement comment for the task.	2004-08-11 17:05:36	17	5	0
Task: "Default table display "	todd	Change default table options to display all columns.	2004-08-11 17:07:41	17	5	0
Task: "Release new version 0.2.2"	todd	When changes are made and committed to the public version, the version number should be updated ("Deme version is...") and a new release posted on the CVS system with an announcement on Freshmeat. Releases will be more frequent, but tha'ts definitely okay.	2004-08-11 17:17:04	17	5	3
Task: "Update glossary"	todd	The Deme glossary should be updated.	2004-08-11 17:18:52	17	5	1
Update: "Update glossary"	todd	Updated on August 11th, 2004, 17:19 by todd -Estimated Completion Date changed from 'No Estimated Time' to '2004-8-27 23:59:59'	2004-08-11 17:19:32	25	5	0
Task: "Chop seconds off times"	todd	The seconds can be deleted from the display of times, e.g. in the "Date Created" field for project tasks.	2004-08-11 17:22:31	17	5	3
Task: "Sort high priority first"	todd	Sorting of tasks by priority in a project should result in high priority first, then medium then low.	2004-08-11 17:28:33	17	5	1
Task: "Standardize priority categories"	todd	Priority categories still display as numbers in pulldown during task editing - should be changed to low, medium, high.	2004-08-11 17:30:21	17	5	0
Clarification?	andrew	So, do you want me to change all item types links to say "Link to this item" or would your rather just see the project and tasks links fixed to say "Link to this project" and "Link to this task"? ------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-11 16:59:58.------ :Change "Link to this document", "Link to this discussion item" etc. to "Link to this item" for all item types to get the URL. "Link to this discussion item" appears for projects, which is wrong.	2004-08-12 08:48:16	21	5	1
All should be the same	todd	I think having the same wording for all items will be easier. In this case it looks like code was ported over and would have been correct if the wording were uniform. ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-08-12 08:48:16.------ :So, do you want me to change all item types links to say "Link to this item" or would your rather just see the project and tasks links fixed to say "Link to this project" and "Link to this task"? : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-11 16:59:58.------ ::Change "Link to this document", "Link to this discussion item" etc. to "Link to this item" for all item types to get the URL. "Link to this discussion item" appears for projects, which is wrong.	2004-08-12 10:35:46	30	5	0
Task: "Incorrect comment link"	todd	For some reason the comment link in the message below leads me to the wrong comment when I cut and paste it into (in Netscape 7.1/Windows 98). I'm not sure how general this problem is. Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 08:48:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Deme Notifier gt; To: Todd Davies gt; Subject: [Deme 013 Development Group] andrew: "Clarification?" Meeting area: "General Dev And Design" http://www.groupspace.org/base2/groups/Deme_013_Deve/marea/?marea_id=1&msg_id=30 Clarification? So, do you want me to change all item types links to say "Link to this item" or would your rather just see the project and tasks links fixed to say "Link to this project" and "Link to this task"? ------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-11 16:59:58.------ :Change "Link to this document", "Link to this discussion item" etc. to "Link to this item" for all item types to get the URL. "Link to this discussion item" appears for projects, which is wrong. ______________________________________________________________________ Deme 013 Development Group Your Mailing settings: http://www.groupspace.org/base2/groups/Deme_013_Deve/main/usersettings.php Deme_013_Deve home page: http://www.groupspace.org/base2/groups/Deme_013_Deve	2004-08-12 10:40:23	17	5	3
Task: "Placement of pulldowns in task posting"	todd	I think it's better to put the category pulldown ahead of the description for users posting a task. That should help guide the writing of the description so that it fits clearly into one of the categories, which should help avoid tasks being posted that are too broad.	2004-08-12 10:43:08	17	5	2
Can't recreate	andrew	Which message does it lead you to? (or does it just fail and crash?). I can't recreate this error on IE 6 on Win XP (which is good problem and a bad problem... good because it's limited, but bad because I'm not sure what browers dependent issue is going on and I don't really have a way to test it. ~Andrew ------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-12 10:40:23.------ :For some reason the comment link in the message below leads me to the wrong comment when I cut and paste it into (in Netscape 7.1/Windows 98). I'm not sure how general this problem is. : :Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 08:48:17 -0700 (PDT) :From: Deme Notifier gt; :To: Todd Davies gt; :Subject: [Deme 013 Development Group] andrew: "Clarification?" : :Meeting area: "General Dev And Design" : :http://www.groupspace.org/base2/groups/Deme_013_Deve/marea/?marea_id=1&msg_id=30 : :Clarification? : :So, do you want me to change all item types links to say "Link to this item" or :would your rather just see the project and tasks links fixed to say "Link to :this project" and "Link to this task"? : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-11 16:59:58.------ ::Change "Link to this document", "Link to this discussion item" etc. to "Link :to this item" for all item types to get the URL. "Link to this discussion :item" appears for projects, which is wrong. :______________________________________________________________________ :Deme 013 Development Group :Your Mailing settings: : http://www.groupspace.org/base2/groups/Deme_013_Deve/main/usersettings.php :Deme_013_Deve home page: http://www.groupspace.org/base2/groups/Deme_013_Deve :	2004-08-12 10:47:05	32	5	2
Update: "Display only date in task table"	todd	Updated on August 12th, 2004, 10:49 by todd -Title changed from 'Chop seconds off times' to 'Display only date in task table' -Description changed from 'The seconds can be deleted from the display of times, e.g. in the "Date Created" field for project tasks.' to 'I now think it\\'s best just to display the date in the table. The time the task was posted can be seen after it is clicked on, and there I would shave off the seconds.'	2004-08-12 10:49:44	27	5	0
Hmm, now it's okay	todd	It looks like it is just a problem with Pine not copying the full link. When I copy from the posted task it goes to the correct comment. I will delete this task. ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-08-12 10:47:05.------ :Which message does it lead you to? (or does it just fail and crash?). I can't recreate this error on IE 6 on Win XP (which is good problem and a bad problem... good because it's limited, but bad because I'm not sure what browers dependent issue is going on and I don't really have a way to test it. :~Andrew : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-12 10:40:23.------ ::For some reason the comment link in the message below leads me to the wrong comment when I cut and paste it into (in Netscape 7.1/Windows 98). I'm not sure how general this problem is. :: ::Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 08:48:17 -0700 (PDT) ::From: Deme Notifier gt; ::To: Todd Davies gt; ::Subject: [Deme 013 Development Group] andrew: "Clarification?" :: ::Meeting area: "General Dev And Design" :: ::http://www.groupspace.org/base2/groups/Deme_013_Deve/marea/?marea_id=1&msg_id=30 :: ::Clarification? :: ::So, do you want me to change all item types links to say "Link to this item" or ::would your rather just see the project and tasks links fixed to say "Link to ::this project" and "Link to this task"? :: ::------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-11 16:59:58.------ :::Change "Link to this document", "Link to this discussion item" etc. to "Link ::to this item" for all item types to get the URL. "Link to this discussion ::item" appears for projects, which is wrong. ::______________________________________________________________________ ::Deme 013 Development Group ::Your Mailing settings: :: http://www.groupspace.org/base2/groups/Deme_013_Deve/main/usersettings.php ::Deme_013_Deve home page: http://www.groupspace.org/base2/groups/Deme_013_Deve ::	2004-08-12 10:55:25	34	5	1
oops, forgot we can't delete (nm)	todd	------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-12 10:55:25.------ :It looks like it is just a problem with Pine not copying the full link. :When I copy from the posted task it goes to the correct comment. I will delete this task. : :------ andrew wrote on: 2004-08-12 10:47:05.------ ::Which message does it lead you to? (or does it just fail and crash?). I can't recreate this error on IE 6 on Win XP (which is good problem and a bad problem... good because it's limited, but bad because I'm not sure what browers dependent issue is going on and I don't really have a way to test it. ::~Andrew :: ::------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-12 10:40:23.------ :::For some reason the comment link in the message below leads me to the wrong comment when I cut and paste it into (in Netscape 7.1/Windows 98). I'm not sure how general this problem is. ::: :::Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 08:48:17 -0700 (PDT) :::From: Deme Notifier gt; :::To: Todd Davies gt; :::Subject: [Deme 013 Development Group] andrew: "Clarification?" ::: :::Meeting area: "General Dev And Design" ::: :::http://www.groupspace.org/base2/groups/Deme_013_Deve/marea/?marea_id=1&msg_id=30 ::: :::Clarification? ::: :::So, do you want me to change all item types links to say "Link to this item" or :::would your rather just see the project and tasks links fixed to say "Link to :::this project" and "Link to this task"? ::: :::------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-11 16:59:58.------ ::::Change "Link to this document", "Link to this discussion item" etc. to "Link :::to this item" for all item types to get the URL. "Link to this discussion :::item" appears for projects, which is wrong. :::______________________________________________________________________ :::Deme 013 Development Group :::Your Mailing settings: ::: http://www.groupspace.org/base2/groups/Deme_013_Deve/main/usersettings.php :::Deme_013_Deve home page: http://www.groupspace.org/base2/groups/Deme_013_Deve :::	2004-08-12 10:56:46	36	5	0
Task: "Itemref highlighting for projects"	todd	After the name of the task is replaced with the name of the project in task-specific item references (see task 4-d), we need to correct item reference highlighting for task comments so it jibes with the other item types. The item reference should be highlighted green in the comments index and comment reader panes, and the names should correspond, when the item (project or task thereof) is loaded in the item viewer. Right now this is not working correctly, perhaps because each task has its own name and so the correspondence between the project name (which still appears in the comment reader header's version of the itemref even for task) and the item reference breaks down. I'm rating this high priority because item referencing is important to have working consistently so users understand how it's supposed to work.	2004-08-12 11:14:15	17	5	1
Update: "Sort high priority first"	andrew	Updated on August 12th, 2004, 16:10 by andrew -Est. Time changed from '0' to '0.1'	2004-08-12 16:10:15	28	5	0
Update: "Release new version 0.2.2"	andrew	Updated on August 12th, 2004, 16:12 by andrew -Description changed from 'When changes are made and committed to the public version, the version number should be updated ("Deme version is...") and a new release posted on the CVS system with an announcement on Freshmeat. Releases will be more frequent, but tha'ts definitely okay.' to 'When changes are made and committed to the public version, the version number should be updated (\\"Deme version is...\\") and a new release posted on the CVS system with an announcement on Freshmeat. Releases will be more frequent, but tha\\'ts definitely okay.' -Deadline changed from 'No Deadline' to '2004-8-24 23:59:59'	2004-08-12 16:12:25	24	5	0
Task: "Link parsing in curmsg"	andrew	When there are hyperlinks displayed in the current message view, if two links have the host name, but one of the links is longer than the other, then the current link parsing scheme (which I believe is located in lib/WSObject.php ) collides and produces undesired results. Check the old POD Dev for examples of this error. This is not a quick fix (I spent a few hours looking for a quick fix, but it's complicated logic... the parser might need to be completely rewritten).	2004-08-12 16:16:37	17	5	8
Task: "Create Tasks and Proj Simultaneously"	andrew	When a user creates a new project, he/she should be able to create new tasks in a similar format to the creation of new props in the creation of a poll. This requires rewriting a large portion of task creation because current task creation is dependent on that fact that its parent project currently exists.	2004-08-12 16:21:35	17	5	1
Task: "Faulty post-task-creation highlight"	andrew	For some reason, after creating a task, when the msglist and folioviewer tries to update the highlighting, it highlights an incorrect task. This appears to only happen when there are lots of tasks in a project... Need to study this bug more before work can be done on it.	2004-08-12 16:24:00	17	5	1
Task: "Equating enlarged view"	todd	Englarged pane popups should include the same frames as in the standard view, e.g. the control panels as well as the displays.	2004-08-13 11:13:43	17	5	3
New project features	todd	Nice to see the changes in the project type. Can this be reflected in a new version number and release?	2004-08-13 11:15:45	0	0	6
Re: New project features	andrew	Sure, I can release if you'd like. I'm not sure that my changes are too substantial. I still haven't finished all the revisions we discussed when you first came back. For example, the creation of projects still does not allow simultaneous creation of tasks. I'm happy to release as often as you like, especially because it generates interest and traffic. However, the more often I release, the less work I do because each release requires updating the website, compressing a new tar file, and updating freshmeat.net. So what do you think? Still want a release? ------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-13 11:15:45.------ :Nice to see the changes in the project type. Can this be reflected in a new version number and release?	2004-08-13 11:22:27	45	0	5
Task: "General comments for all items"	todd	General comments should be enabled for all items, with location (task) specific comments also available for plain-text documents and projects. Comment references for general comments should appear below the preface in the item display for each item type.	2004-08-13 11:24:32	17	5	1
V0.2.2 ready?	todd	I don't understand the Aug 24 deadline for this task. It looks to me like 0.2.2 is ready to name, as the code has already been modified since 0.2.1. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-11 17:17:04.------ :When changes are made and committed to the public version, the version number should be updated ("Deme version is...") and a new release posted on the CVS system with an announcement on Freshmeat. Releases will be more frequent, but tha'ts definitely okay.	2004-08-13 11:27:50	24	5	1
How long does it take?	todd	How much time is involved in doing a release? ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-08-13 11:22:27.------ :Sure, I can release if you'd like. I'm not sure that my changes are too substantial. I still haven't finished all the revisions we discussed when you first came back. For example, the creation of projects still does not allow simultaneous creation of tasks. : :I'm happy to release as often as you like, especially because it generates interest and traffic. However, the more often I release, the less work I do because each release requires updating the website, compressing a new tar file, and updating freshmeat.net. So what do you think? Still want a release? : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-13 11:15:45.------ ::Nice to see the changes in the project type. Can this be reflected in a new version number and release?	2004-08-13 11:29:19	46	0	4
task times	todd	Andrew, feel free to update estimated times for all the tasks. Mine when I post are obviously not based on much, but the back and forth should help me tune my intuitions over time. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-11 13:10:06.------ :These are tasks associated with the next major release of Deme.	2004-08-13 11:31:51	17	5	1
good question	andrew	I was thinking the same thing when I made my last post. I figured out that with the experience I've gained from the summer, I guess I can do a release pretty quickly now, but someone who has never done a release would probably take much longer (just like I did earlier this summer). So I just updated the private developers section of the DemeWiki with guidelines for release. Check it out if you want to see all that is involved in the process. http://groupspace.org/DemeWiki/PiecePrivate/DemeDevelopers Anyway. I guess a release could take less than an hour, but if the person doing it screws it, the reprocussions are kinda big because it could turn off people that would potentially be interested in the project. So, with doing everything carefully, and checking your work after every step, I guess a release takes like an hour and a half. Part of what makes it take awhile is I always forget the EXACT commands that I have to type to get the EXACT kind of tar and/or CVS checkout I need... the next time I release I should write all the commands down in meticulous fashion and update the DemeWiki with the information. Then I guess it would be an hour per release. ~Andrew ------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-13 11:29:19.------ :How much time is involved in doing a release? : :------ andrew wrote on: 2004-08-13 11:22:27.------ ::Sure, I can release if you'd like. I'm not sure that my changes are too substantial. I still haven't finished all the revisions we discussed when you first came back. For example, the creation of projects still does not allow simultaneous creation of tasks. :: ::I'm happy to release as often as you like, especially because it generates interest and traffic. However, the more often I release, the less work I do because each release requires updating the website, compressing a new tar file, and updating freshmeat.net. So what do you think? Still want a release? :: ::------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-13 11:15:45.------ :::Nice to see the changes in the project type. Can this be reflected in a new version number and release?	2004-08-13 11:59:34	49	0	3
Re: task times	andrew	will do. I just haven't had time to think about them all yet. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-13 11:31:51.------ :Andrew, feel free to update estimated times for all the tasks. Mine when I post are obviously not based on much, but the back and forth should help me tune my intuitions over time. : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-11 13:10:06.------ ::These are tasks associated with the next major release of Deme.	2004-08-13 12:00:59	50	5	0
Re: V0.2.2 ready?	andrew	Yea, I set that deadline last night. My thinking at the time was that I should just do a bunch of stuff before then, and aim for that release date. The 27th is my last day (I have a flight home on the 30th cause I get kicked out of housing on the 1st), so my thinking was: aim for a 24th release date and I'll probably end up getting it done by the 27th. But that was before we had our discussion thread about releasing more often, so this deadline should be revised. Like I said earlier: I can release today if you'd like. Whatever you want, just let me know. ~Andrew ------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-13 11:27:50.------ :I don't understand the Aug 24 deadline for this task. It looks to me like 0.2.2 is ready to name, as the code has already been modified since 0.2.1. : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-11 17:17:04.------ ::When changes are made and committed to the public version, the version number should be updated ("Deme version is...") and a new release posted on the CVS system with an announcement on Freshmeat. Releases will be more frequent, but tha'ts definitely okay.	2004-08-13 12:05:25	48	5	0
release frequency	todd	Assuming an hour per release, I'd say let's do one now, and once a week whenever the public code has been updated. After the run of conferences I am attending in the next five days, I'll have a bit of time to spend getting up to speed so maybe I can help with some of the UI and text change stuff. ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-08-13 11:59:34.------ :I was thinking the same thing when I made my last post. I figured out that with the experience I've gained from the summer, I guess I can do a release pretty quickly now, but someone who has never done a release would probably take much longer (just like I did earlier this summer). So I just updated the private developers section of the DemeWiki with guidelines for release. Check it out if you want to see all that is involved in the process. : :http://groupspace.org/DemeWiki/PiecePrivate/DemeDevelopers : :Anyway. I guess a release could take less than an hour, but if the person doing it screws it, the reprocussions are kinda big because it could turn off people that would potentially be interested in the project. So, with doing everything carefully, and checking your work after every step, I guess a release takes like an hour and a half. : :Part of what makes it take awhile is I always forget the EXACT commands that I have to type to get the EXACT kind of tar and/or CVS checkout I need... the next time I release I should write all the commands down in meticulous fashion and update the DemeWiki with the information. Then I guess it would be an hour per release. : :~Andrew : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-13 11:29:19.------ ::How much time is involved in doing a release? :: ::------ andrew wrote on: 2004-08-13 11:22:27.------ :::Sure, I can release if you'd like. I'm not sure that my changes are too substantial. I still haven't finished all the revisions we discussed when you first came back. For example, the creation of projects still does not allow simultaneous creation of tasks. ::: :::I'm happy to release as often as you like, especially because it generates interest and traffic. However, the more often I release, the less work I do because each release requires updating the website, compressing a new tar file, and updating freshmeat.net. So what do you think? Still want a release? ::: :::------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-13 11:15:45.------ ::::Nice to see the changes in the project type. Can this be reflected in a new version number and release?	2004-08-13 13:22:07	51	0	2
sure thing	andrew	Ok. I'll start a release shortly. I'd be happy to help you learn the code in a bit more depth so that you can start making basic UI tweaks. We can sit down and run through the code whenever you'd like. Good luck preparing for your run of conferences. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-13 13:22:07.------ :Assuming an hour per release, I'd say let's do one now, and once a week whenever the public code has been updated. After the run of conferences I am attending in the next five days, I'll have a bit of time to spend getting up to speed so maybe I can help with some of the UI and text change stuff. : :------ andrew wrote on: 2004-08-13 11:59:34.------ ::I was thinking the same thing when I made my last post. I figured out that with the experience I've gained from the summer, I guess I can do a release pretty quickly now, but someone who has never done a release would probably take much longer (just like I did earlier this summer). So I just updated the private developers section of the DemeWiki with guidelines for release. Check it out if you want to see all that is involved in the process. :: ::http://groupspace.org/DemeWiki/PiecePrivate/DemeDevelopers :: ::Anyway. I guess a release could take less than an hour, but if the person doing it screws it, the reprocussions are kinda big because it could turn off people that would potentially be interested in the project. So, with doing everything carefully, and checking your work after every step, I guess a release takes like an hour and a half. :: ::Part of what makes it take awhile is I always forget the EXACT commands that I have to type to get the EXACT kind of tar and/or CVS checkout I need... the next time I release I should write all the commands down in meticulous fashion and update the DemeWiki with the information. Then I guess it would be an hour per release. :: ::~Andrew :: ::------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-13 11:29:19.------ :::How much time is involved in doing a release? ::: :::------ andrew wrote on: 2004-08-13 11:22:27.------ ::::Sure, I can release if you'd like. I'm not sure that my changes are too substantial. I still haven't finished all the revisions we discussed when you first came back. For example, the creation of projects still does not allow simultaneous creation of tasks. :::: ::::I'm happy to release as often as you like, especially because it generates interest and traffic. However, the more often I release, the less work I do because each release requires updating the website, compressing a new tar file, and updating freshmeat.net. So what do you think? Still want a release? :::: ::::------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-13 11:15:45.------ :::::Nice to see the changes in the project type. Can this be reflected in a new version number and release?	2004-08-13 13:34:48	54	0	1
Before v02.2.2	todd	This task should probably get done, and this group made unpublic, before the next release goes out. ------ guest wrote on: 2004-08-11 13:30:45.------ :User Guest should not be able to join a group.	2004-08-13 13:42:49	20	5	4
done, but...	andrew	Hi Todd. I just made this fix... however, this Deme internal dev group is still somewhat open to the public. It is no longer listed on the groupspace.org homepage; however, if someone had (or guessed) this URL, they could create an acct and join this group without restriction. Would you like me to change this group to be by invite only? ~Andrew ------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-13 13:42:49.------ :This task should probably get done, and this group made unpublic, before the next release goes out. : :------ guest wrote on: 2004-08-11 13:30:45.------ ::User Guest should not be able to join a group.	2004-08-13 14:07:06	56	5	3
My education	todd	Let's tentatively set aside some time early in the week of the 23rd (Monday or Tuesday) to talk about the code. I'll try to use the time before then preparing by reading the documentation and PHP stuff. ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-08-13 13:34:48.------ :Ok. I'll start a release shortly. I'd be happy to help you learn the code in a bit more depth so that you can start making basic UI tweaks. We can sit down and run through the code whenever you'd like. Good luck preparing for your run of conferences. : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-13 13:22:07.------ ::Assuming an hour per release, I'd say let's do one now, and once a week whenever the public code has been updated. After the run of conferences I am attending in the next five days, I'll have a bit of time to spend getting up to speed so maybe I can help with some of the UI and text change stuff. :: ::------ andrew wrote on: 2004-08-13 11:59:34.------ :::I was thinking the same thing when I made my last post. I figured out that with the experience I've gained from the summer, I guess I can do a release pretty quickly now, but someone who has never done a release would probably take much longer (just like I did earlier this summer). So I just updated the private developers section of the DemeWiki with guidelines for release. Check it out if you want to see all that is involved in the process. ::: :::http://groupspace.org/DemeWiki/PiecePrivate/DemeDevelopers ::: :::Anyway. I guess a release could take less than an hour, but if the person doing it screws it, the reprocussions are kinda big because it could turn off people that would potentially be interested in the project. So, with doing everything carefully, and checking your work after every step, I guess a release takes like an hour and a half. ::: :::Part of what makes it take awhile is I always forget the EXACT commands that I have to type to get the EXACT kind of tar and/or CVS checkout I need... the next time I release I should write all the commands down in meticulous fashion and update the DemeWiki with the information. Then I guess it would be an hour per release. ::: :::~Andrew ::: :::------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-13 11:29:19.------ ::::How much time is involved in doing a release? :::: ::::------ andrew wrote on: 2004-08-13 11:22:27.------ :::::Sure, I can release if you'd like. I'm not sure that my changes are too substantial. I still haven't finished all the revisions we discussed when you first came back. For example, the creation of projects still does not allow simultaneous creation of tasks. ::::: :::::I'm happy to release as often as you like, especially because it generates interest and traffic. However, the more often I release, the less work I do because each release requires updating the website, compressing a new tar file, and updating freshmeat.net. So what do you think? Still want a release? ::::: :::::------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-13 11:15:45.------ ::::::Nice to see the changes in the project type. Can this be reflected in a new version number and release?	2004-08-13 14:07:33	55	0	0
Yes, I'd say..	todd	invite only, and maybe change the name if that's possible since we are already past v0.1.3 ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-08-13 14:07:06.------ :Hi Todd. I just made this fix... however, this Deme internal dev group is still somewhat open to the public. It is no longer listed on the groupspace.org homepage; however, if someone had (or guessed) this URL, they could create an acct and join this group without restriction. Would you like me to change this group to be by invite only? : :~Andrew : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-13 13:42:49.------ ::This task should probably get done, and this group made unpublic, before the next release goes out. :: ::------ guest wrote on: 2004-08-11 13:30:45.------ :::User Guest should not be able to join a group.	2004-08-13 14:10:54	57	5	2
Originally missed	andrew	Hi Todd, I had originally missed this comment. Sorry about that. Anyway, I've changed the name to Deme Development Group, however, I did not change the directory structure, database name, or url for this page because all of these items are more sensitive than just the group name. So, the name of the group that now appears on the Group home page and on all the links generated to this group is "Deme Development Group", however, the url and database are still title Deme_013_Deve. Is this good enough, or do you want me to try to change the other items I mentioned? BTW the group is now invite-only. I think that's appropriate. ~Andrew ------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-13 14:10:54.------ :invite only, and maybe change the name if that's possible since we are already past v0.1.3 : :------ andrew wrote on: 2004-08-13 14:07:06.------ ::Hi Todd. I just made this fix... however, this Deme internal dev group is still somewhat open to the public. It is no longer listed on the groupspace.org homepage; however, if someone had (or guessed) this URL, they could create an acct and join this group without restriction. Would you like me to change this group to be by invite only? :: ::~Andrew :: ::------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-13 13:42:49.------ :::This task should probably get done, and this group made unpublic, before the next release goes out. ::: :::------ guest wrote on: 2004-08-11 13:30:45.------ ::::User Guest should not be able to join a group.	2004-08-16 10:46:50	59	5	1
Update: "Equating enlarged view"	andrew	Updated on August 16th, 2004, 10:50 by andrew -Description changed from 'Englarged pane popups should include the same frames as in the standard view, e.g. the control panels as well as the displays.' to 'Englarged pane popups should include the same frames as in the standard view, e.g. the control panels as well as the displays. The key to this task (ie the reason why it will certainly take awhile to complete) is getting the javascript controls in the toolbars for each of the frames to work correctly with the javascript in the main parent frame. It\\'s an issue of wiring up the controls essentially.'	2004-08-16 10:50:46	44	5	2
Update: "Uploaded File - Blank Display"	andrew	Updated on August 16th, 2004, 11:02 by andrew -Description changed from 'Item display goes blank after an uploaded document file is clicked on. Item display should retain previous info.' to 'Item display goes blank after an uploaded document file is clicked on. Item display should retain previous info. //Below is my (andrew\\'s) addition to the original description above.// I have more information on this \\"bug\\" now. I write bug in quotation marks because the software is actually performing as expected. Currently, when a document has a file attachment (instead of plain-text display), upon initial viewing there is a link that says \\"click here to view document\\" Clicking that link opens the document *IN THE FOLIO VIEW FRAME.* Here\\'s the difficulty: Sometimes opening the document in the folio view frame is the ideal desired action. For example, when a document is an image, the user probably wants to open the document so that it embeds in the folio viewer. However, this bug listed here was generated because the document linked by the \\"click here to view document\\" was a .doc file, which (on Todd\\'s computer) opened OpenOffice and left the folio viewer screen blank. That\\'s how Todd\\'s computer was set up to handle .doc file links, and the resulting action is not at all ideal. On my computer using IE, the document opens as an embedded copy of microsoft office, which is the ideal action. So, my proposed solution here is to have two possible links for attached files. One link opens the attached file embedded in the folio viewer and the other link opens the item in an new external window. Each link should list the actual filename of the document attached, so savy users can choose their desired option. ' -Est. Time changed from '0' to '1.5'	2004-08-16 11:02:45	18	5	0
yeah, that's fine	todd	The URL name doesn't matter that much. ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-08-16 10:46:50.------ :Hi Todd, :I had originally missed this comment. Sorry about that. Anyway, I've changed the name to Deme Development Group, however, I did not change the directory structure, database name, or url for this page because all of these items are more sensitive than just the group name. So, the name of the group that now appears on the Group home page and on all the links generated to this group is "Deme Development Group", however, the url and database are still title Deme_013_Deve. Is this good enough, or do you want me to try to change the other items I mentioned? : :BTW the group is now invite-only. I think that's appropriate. :~Andrew : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-13 14:10:54.------ ::invite only, and maybe change the name if that's possible since we are already past v0.1.3 :: ::------ andrew wrote on: 2004-08-13 14:07:06.------ :::Hi Todd. I just made this fix... however, this Deme internal dev group is still somewhat open to the public. It is no longer listed on the groupspace.org homepage; however, if someone had (or guessed) this URL, they could create an acct and join this group without restriction. Would you like me to change this group to be by invite only? ::: :::~Andrew ::: :::------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-13 13:42:49.------ ::::This task should probably get done, and this group made unpublic, before the next release goes out. :::: ::::------ guest wrote on: 2004-08-11 13:30:45.------ :::::User Guest should not be able to join a group.	2004-08-16 23:30:08	60	5	0
hack?	todd	Can you ease this for now by making the popup operate independently of the main view? ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-08-16 10:50:46.------ :Updated on August 16th, 2004, 10:50 by andrew :-Description changed from 'Englarged pane popups should include the same frames as in the standard view, e.g. the control panels as well as the displays.' to 'Englarged pane popups should include the same frames as in the standard view, e.g. the control panels as well as the displays. : :The key to this task (ie the reason why it will certainly take awhile to complete) is getting the javascript controls in the toolbars for each of the frames to work correctly with the javascript in the main parent frame. It\\'s an issue of wiring up the controls essentially.'	2004-08-16 23:32:17	61	5	1
progress	andrew	I made good progress on this task yestarday and I'm going to continue to see what I can do today. I'm trying to avoid ugly hacks because I think the external popup windows could be really useful. ~Andrew ------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-16 23:32:17.------ :Can you ease this for now by making the popup operate independently of the main view? : :------ andrew wrote on: 2004-08-16 10:50:46.------ ::Updated on August 16th, 2004, 10:50 by andrew ::-Description changed from 'Englarged pane popups should include the same frames as in the standard view, e.g. the control panels as well as the displays.' to 'Englarged pane popups should include the same frames as in the standard view, e.g. the control panels as well as the displays. :: ::The key to this task (ie the reason why it will certainly take awhile to complete) is getting the javascript controls in the toolbars for each of the frames to work correctly with the javascript in the main parent frame. It\\'s an issue of wiring up the controls essentially.'	2004-08-17 10:01:36	64	5	0
Task: "New generic item wizard"	andrew	I have noticed that when people unfamiliar with Deme go to post a new item, they often choose the wrong item type for their purposes. For example, people that want to discuss the contents of a recent .pdf report out on the net will choose a "discussion item" type instead of a "document" item type or "link" item type, both of which would be more appropriate. I think it would be useful to create a item creation wizard. It would be a relatively large button on the folio viewer toolbar that would say "create new item...". Upon clicking this button, a popup window would display that would walk you through a series of questions. Some of the questions could be, Do you want to discuss a document? -if yes: -Is your document on your computer or is it on the internet? -if internet: send them to the new link page... -if computer: Is your document in plain text or is it a more complex file? -if plaintext, send then to the new plaintext doc page... Do you want to create a new vote on an issue? Do you want to have a general discussion on a question of your choosing (not pertraining to a specific document)? Do you want to plan a long term project? Obviously all the questions listed above are entirely half-baked and underdeveloped, but if someone put a bunch of time into developing a good list of questions, I suspect that this feature could be very useful to novice users, and decreasing the learning curve on Deme should definitely be a priority in the near future.	2004-08-17 15:36:19	17	5	1
Google search results	andrew	A quick note: A google search for Deme lists our Freshmeat.net project entry as the second hit! However, it does not seem to list the groupspace.org page anywhere. A google search for Groupspace brings up the groupspace.org page at about hit 7 or so... but unfortunately it was indexed with an ugly query string which makes our page display an odd statement. I think I can fix the query string problem by switching the way that the code gets state variables from the user (make the user send information via "post" instead of "get"). Finally, a google search for groupspace.org doesn't result in any hits at all, this is very confusing to me because they have our page indexed... I don't know what's going on with that.... ~Andrew	2004-08-17 15:48:43	0	0	1
I like this idea	todd	As you say, details would need to be fleshed out, but it seems like a good component of a package of design changes to make Deme easier to use. Todd ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-08-17 15:36:19.------ :I have noticed that when people unfamiliar with Deme go to post a new item, they often choose the wrong item type for their purposes. For example, people that want to discuss the contents of a recent .pdf report out on the net will choose a "discussion item" type instead of a "document" item type or "link" item type, both of which would be more appropriate. : :I think it would be useful to create a item creation wizard. It would be a relatively large button on the folio viewer toolbar that would say "create new item...". Upon clicking this button, a popup window would display that would walk you through a series of questions. Some of the questions could be, : :Do you want to discuss a document? : -if yes: : -Is your document on your computer or is it on the internet? : -if internet: send them to the new link page... : -if computer: Is your document in plain text or is it a more complex file? : -if plaintext, send then to the new plaintext doc page... : :Do you want to create a new vote on an issue? :Do you want to have a general discussion on a question of your choosing (not pertraining to a specific document)? :Do you want to plan a long term project? : :Obviously all the questions listed above are entirely half-baked and underdeveloped, but if someone put a bunch of time into developing a good list of questions, I suspect that this feature could be very useful to novice users, and decreasing the learning curve on Deme should definitely be a priority in the near future. : :	2004-08-18 10:23:44	66	5	0
Task: "Wording in 0.2.2 release"	todd	I don't think we can commit to releasing every week or two in general - I just meant we should do that while programming is going on intensively. Can you delete the wording about releasing more often? I don't want us to promise anything.	2004-08-18 10:27:03	17	5	1
Re: Google search results	todd	Failure to find a domain name (e.g. groupspace.org) is a general bug in Google, I think, or maybe it's a feature. I'll change the link on my own homepage, which should boost Groupspace a little. ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-08-17 15:48:43.------ :A quick note: : :A google search for Deme lists our Freshmeat.net project entry as the second hit! However, it does not seem to list the groupspace.org page anywhere. : :A google search for Groupspace brings up the groupspace.org page at about hit 7 or so... but unfortunately it was indexed with an ugly query string which makes our page display an odd statement. I think I can fix the query string problem by switching the way that the code gets state variables from the user (make the user send information via "post" instead of "get"). : :Finally, a google search for groupspace.org doesn't result in any hits at all, this is very confusing to me because they have our page indexed... I don't know what's going on with that.... : :~Andrew	2004-08-18 10:30:37	67	0	0
Link: "Deme Wiki"	todd	A link to our wiki.	2004-08-18 11:20:51	0	26	3
opps	andrew	Sorry about that. I made the necessary revision on the website. ~Andrew ------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-18 10:27:03.------ :I don't think we can commit to releasing every week or two in general - I just meant we should do that while programming is going on intensively. Can you delete the wording about releasing more often? I don't want us to promise anything.	2004-08-18 11:51:29	69	5	0
Task: "Task list in large popup"	todd	In enlarged view popup of a project item, clicking project from viewing a specific task within the project fails to load task list into the popup, you get "loading..." forever.	2004-08-18 13:26:44	17	5	0
Task: "Subject highlighting under new sort"	todd	Changing to a different sorting method highlights the wrong current (yellow highlighted) comment's subject in the comments index.	2004-08-18 13:41:59	17	5	0
Task: "Load announcement for viewed task"	todd	When a task is clicked on in a project, the announcement comment should load in the comments viewer.	2004-08-18 13:47:40	17	5	2
Task: "clean up item reference highlighting"	todd	Item reference highlighting in comments index should reflect the active item reference	2004-08-18 13:49:32	17	5	0
Task: "Sort switching should preserve active item"	todd	Switching e.g. to date sort from item sort in comments index currently does not preserve loaded item.	2004-08-18 13:52:26	17	5	0
Task: "Get rid of expand,collapse"	todd	Delete greyed out expand/collapse options in comments index. (Eventually we may go to a gmail-type single pane interface for threaded views/)	2004-08-18 14:08:01	17	5	3
Task: "Respond/reply links in comment reader header"	todd	Add redundant links for responding and email replying to comment in the header control panel for comment reader.	2004-08-18 14:09:26	17	5	0
Update: "Link parsing in curmsg"	todd	Updated on August 18th, 2004, 14:12 by todd -Priority changed from 'Low' to 'Medium'	2004-08-18 14:12:04	41	5	0
Update: "General comments for all items"	todd	Updated on August 18th, 2004, 14:21 by todd -Priority changed from 'Medium' to 'High'	2004-08-18 14:21:58	47	5	0
Task: "Correct "Post this new task?""	todd	When editing a task, change "Post this new task?" check popup to "Post this edit?"	2004-08-18 14:23:16	17	5	0
Task: "Add task letters to table"	todd	Add a column for task letter in project task list, and delete date created from display table, replacing "last changed" with "modified" (including date created if no mods) and moving modified column forward in the table.	2004-08-18 14:29:42	17	5	2
Task: "Tutorial subsite"	todd	Create a subsite with labeled screenshots to introduce people to Deme.	2004-08-18 15:07:18	17	5	0
Task: "Change "original message" -> "Announcement""	todd	Change "Original Message" to "Announcement" in the general comments listing under prefaces.	2004-08-18 15:19:06	17	5	2
Task: "Simple group name URLs"	todd	Groups should be reachable via www.groupspace.org/GROUPNAME rather than the more elaborate /base2 syntax.	2004-08-19 13:30:25	17	5	3
Link: "POD Internal Group, early 2004"	todd	This is the link to the internal group for discussions from January through early July, 2004.	2004-08-19 16:49:18	0	39	3
Wheee!	todd	POD in Deme, looks fine actually. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-19 16:49:18.------ :This is the link to the internal group for discussions from January through early July, 2004.	2004-08-19 16:51:37	87	39	0
Link: "Just for fun"	todd	Recursive meeting areas. Keep clicking this link in ever smaller frames.	2004-08-19 18:10:36	0	40	1
This is Extreme Deme!	todd	------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-19 18:10:36.------ :Recursive meeting areas. Keep clicking this link in ever smaller frames.	2004-08-19 18:12:12	89	40	0
Task: "warnings produced"	andrew	the "add task" action in the action selector produces two warnings: here's the text from the errors: Notice: strtotime() called with empty time parameter in /var/www/html/pod/base2/code/lib/Project.php on line 23 Warning: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() in /var/www/html/pod/base2/code/lib/Project.php on line 24 It appears that using "add task" from the action selector is not setting the obj_id get variable.	2004-08-23 11:08:38	17	5	1
Task: "Piece server backup cleaning script"	andrew	The piece server has a handy little piece of backup software it uses called hdup. Do a google search to learn more about it. Anyway, one of the problems of this backup software is that it doesn't erase old backups once the hard drive starts to get full. Someone should write a Shell script by the deadline listed (I choose this deadline because the harddrive should be about 2/3 full by this point) to remove all files from the backup directory (which I believe is somewhere below /mnt/netdisk/ ) that are older than 6 monthes old. The dates of creation for each backup are written into the file names. You'll see this when you navigate below /mnt/netdisk.	2004-08-23 11:14:23	17	5	3
Task: "Enhance login/mygroups displays"	todd	Right now the login and my groups links are a bit too small on the Grouspace main pages, and they don't appear at all on the group home pages. This should be corrected.	2004-08-23 13:50:13	17	5	1
Task: "Item-based sorting of comments"	todd	Sort by item in the comments index currently sorts by items choronologically rather than by item number, as in the item index. It should sort by item number instead (e.g. 1, then 1.1 in the CFA group's test area).	2004-08-23 14:06:00	17	5	0
Update: "Enhance login/mygroups displays"	todd	Updated on August 23rd, 2004, 14:23 by todd -Description changed from 'Right now the login and my groups links are a bit too small on the Grouspace main pages, and they don't appear at all on the group home pages. This should be corrected.' to 'Right now the login and my groups links in the upper right corner are a bit too small on the Grouspace main pages, and they don\\'t appear at all on the group home pages. I\\'m thinking maybe we should have them always available in the same place on the screen, but am downgrading the priority to medium from high.' -Priority changed from 'High' to 'Medium'	2004-08-23 14:23:56	93	5	0
an easy solution?	todd	One way to deal with this would be just to get rid of "New task" from the action bar, since it's only relevant to project items. ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-08-23 11:08:38.------ :the "add task" action in the action selector produces two warnings: here's the text from the errors: : :Notice: strtotime() called with empty time parameter in /var/www/html/pod/base2/code/lib/Project.php on line 23 :Warning: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() in /var/www/html/pod/base2/code/lib/Project.php on line 24 : :It appears that using "add task" from the action selector is not setting the obj_id get variable.	2004-08-23 14:26:52	91	5	0
Task: "Implement prev/next comment"	todd	Previous and next comment links in the comment reader header should be activated.	2004-08-23 14:30:01	17	5	0
Task: "Bulk subscribe error on setup"	todd	In setting up a new group (AF Internal), I clicked to bulk subscribe people during setup (not from the group home page) and got the following error: "Fatal error: Call to a member function on a non-object in /var/www/html/pod/base2/code/main/bulksubscribe.php on line 9"	2004-08-23 16:18:32	17	5	2
Update: "Bulk subscribe error on setup"	todd	Updated on August 23rd, 2004, 16:21 by todd -Description changed from 'In setting up a new group (AF Internal), I clicked to bulk subscribe people during setup (not from the group home page) and got the following error: "Fatal error: Call to a member function on a non-object in /var/www/html/pod/base2/code/main/bulksubscribe.php on line 9"' to 'In setting up a new group (AF Internal), I clicked to bulk subscribe people during setup (not from the group home page) and got the following error: \\"Fatal error: Call to a member function on a non-object in /var/www/html/pod/base2/code/main/bulksubscribe.php on line 9\\". NOTE: This also happens when Bulk Subscribe is clicked from the group home page.'	2004-08-23 16:21:12	98	5	0
Update: "Bulk subscribe error "	todd	Updated on August 23rd, 2004, 16:22 by todd -Title changed from 'Bulk subscribe error on setup' to 'Bulk subscribe error ' -Description changed from 'In setting up a new group (AF Internal), I clicked to bulk subscribe people during setup (not from the group home page) and got the following error: "Fatal error: Call to a member function on a non-object in /var/www/html/pod/base2/code/main/bulksubscribe.php on line 9". NOTE: This also happens when Bulk Subscribe is clicked from the group home page.' to 'In setting up a new group (AF Internal), I clicked to bulk subscribe people during setup (not from the group home page) and got the following error: \\"Fatal error: Call to a member function on a non-object in /var/www/html/pod/base2/code/main/bulksubscribe.php on line 9\\". NOTE: This also happens when Bulk Subscribe is clicked from the group home page.'	2004-08-23 16:22:20	98	5	0
Task: "Email notification of task updates"	todd	I'm not getting email notices when a task is updated in this project. They should get generated like other comment notifications.	2004-08-23 16:31:50	17	5	2
Task: "Editing preface error"	todd	I get the following error when I try to edit the preface of a link item (occurred in AF Internal group, v0.2.3, Moz 1.4.1/Linux): Fatal error: Cannot instantiate non-existent class: document_ in /var/www/html/pod/base2/code/lib/Document.php(661) : eval()'d code on line 1	2004-08-24 14:57:37	17	5	0
Yow - Emacs!	todd	I just figured out that text editing boxes support Emacs commands. Cool! Is this a full-blown Emacs editor in the middle of Deme?	2004-08-24 15:00:33	0	0	3
Perhaps completed?	andrew	Hi todd. I spent a bunch of time on this one today, and I think it's complete but I forget exactly how you want it to perform. I think it's now performing like the other item types. Anyway, we should talk about this one tomorrow, but for now I'm marking it as complete (note: I have no updated the public code, if you want to see these changes, go to one of the dev2 forums.) ------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-12 11:14:15.------ :After the name of the task is replaced with the name of the project in task-specific item references (see task 4-d), we need to correct item reference highlighting for task comments so it jibes with the other item types. The item reference should be highlighted green in the comments index and comment reader panes, and the names should correspond, when the item (project or task thereof) is loaded in the item viewer. Right now this is not working correctly, perhaps because each task has its own name and so the correspondence between the project name (which still appears in the comment reader header's version of the itemref even for task) and the item reference breaks down. I'm rating this high priority because item referencing is important to have working consistently so users understand how it's supposed to work.	2004-08-24 15:47:45	38	5	0
Alternative: Sourceforge	todd	I've noticed that a lot of open source projects just get a subdomain on Sourceforge. Maybe we should do that, and make the homepage for Deme on Sourceforge instead of setting up a separate domain. Groupspace.org would still be the domain for the ASP, of course, but perhaps we might eventually split off development content to the Deme homepage. Thoughts? ------ todd wrote on: 2004-07-15 15:51:15.------ :I'm thinking I should purchase a domain that could eventually serve as the home site for Deme and its network of installations, as opposed to Groupspace.orG. Deme.org and Deme. net are not available. Some possibilities: Demespace, Demenet, Demeworld. Any thoughts, all you Demers?	2004-08-24 18:15:17	7	3	3
look into it	andrew	I'll check it out... I know we currently have pod.sourceforge.net. Clearly this would need to be updated... Brendan, I don't know if you're following these posts, but if you are, can you give me access to our Sourceforge space? ~Andrew ------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-24 18:15:17.------ :I've noticed that a lot of open source projects just get a subdomain on Sourceforge. Maybe we should do that, and make the homepage for Deme on Sourceforge instead of setting up a separate domain. Groupspace.org would still be the domain for the ASP, of course, but perhaps we might eventually split off development content to the Deme homepage. Thoughts? : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-07-15 15:51:15.------ ::I'm thinking I should purchase a domain that could eventually serve as the home site for Deme and its network of installations, as opposed to Groupspace.orG. Deme.org and Deme. net are not available. Some possibilities: Demespace, Demenet, Demeworld. Any thoughts, all you Demers?	2004-08-24 18:17:54	105	3	2
sorry guys	andrew	HI all. I was developing in my dev group and posting random items to test some features when I accidentially clicked over into this group and posted a random discoitem. I went through the database and deleted all associated items with this garbage posting, so it shouldn't appear anywhere, however you all will still receive the auto-generated e-mail with a deadlink to the no-longer-existant discoitem. Just FYI. Also, I suspect that then next item that is created will have the tag # 9 instead of 8 because 8 was just used by the dead item. Sorry. ~Andrew	2004-08-25 10:03:25	0	0	0
Update: "Uploaded File - Blank Display"	andrew	Updated on August 25th, 2004, 11:55 by andrew -Description changed from 'Item display goes blank after an uploaded document file is clicked on. Item display should retain previous info. //Below is my (andrew's) addition to the original description above.// I have more information on this "bug" now. I write bug in quotation marks because the software is actually performing as expected. Currently, when a document has a file attachment (instead of plain-text display), upon initial viewing there is a link that says "click here to view document" Clicking that link opens the document *IN THE FOLIO VIEW FRAME.* Here's the difficulty: Sometimes opening the document in the folio view frame is the ideal desired action. For example, when a document is an image, the user probably wants to open the document so that it embeds in the folio viewer. However, this bug listed here was generated because the document linked by the "click here to view document" was a .doc file, which (on Todd's computer) opened OpenOffice and left the folio viewer screen blank. That's how Todd's computer was set up to handle .doc file links, and the resulting action is not at all ideal. On my computer using IE, the document opens as an embedded copy of microsoft office, which is the ideal action. So, my proposed solution here is to have two possible links for attached files. One link opens the attached file embedded in the folio viewer and the other link opens the item in an new external window. Each link should list the actual filename of the document attached, so savy users can choose their desired option. ' to 'Item display goes blank after an uploaded document file is clicked on. Item display should retain previous info. //Below is my (andrew\\'s) addition to the original description above.// I have more information on this \\"bug\\" now. I write bug in quotation marks because the software is actually performing as expected. Currently, when a document has a file attachment (instead of plain-text display), upon initial viewing there is a link that says \\"click here to view document\\" Clicking that link opens the document *IN THE FOLIO VIEW FRAME.* Here\\'s the difficulty: Sometimes opening the document in the folio view frame is the ideal desired action. For example, when a document is an image, the user probably wants to open the document so that it embeds in the folio viewer. However, this bug listed here was generated because the document linked by the \\"click here to view document\\" was a .doc file, which (on Todd\\'s computer) opened OpenOffice and left the folio viewer screen blank. That\\'s how Todd\\'s computer was set up to handle .doc file links, and the resulting action is not at all ideal. On my computer using IE, the document opens as an embedded copy of microsoft office, which is the ideal action. So, my proposed solution here is to have two possible links for attached files. One link opens the attached file embedded in the folio viewer and the other link opens the item in an new external window. Each link should list the actual filename of the document attached, so savy users can choose their desired option. latest update: I\\'m going to lower the priority of this task because it is only specific to certain browsers with certain settings (it\\'s essentially an open office/mozilla combo problem. Almost all other browsers/doc readers seem to get this right).' -Priority changed from 'High' to 'Medium'	2004-08-25 11:55:45	18	5	0
Task: "Session variables"	todd	Display settings such as sort method for project tasks, table options, etc. should be stored as session variables. As more user preferences are stored across sessions, these could be read in as initial values for the session variables.	2004-08-25 13:37:18	17	5	0
Task: "Refresh enlarged popouts"	todd	Enlarged version of a viewer should refresh on the same set of actions as the standard view frames do. This is an aspect of enlarged view mirroring.	2004-08-25 13:40:03	17	5	1
Update: "Refresh enlarged popouts"	todd	Updated on August 25th, 2004, 13:45 by todd -Priority changed from 'Medium' to 'High'	2004-08-25 13:45:49	111	5	0
Update: "Email notification of task updates"	todd	Updated on August 25th, 2004, 13:56 by todd -Priority changed from 'Medium' to 'High'	2004-08-25 13:56:20	101	5	0
Task: "Show task poster in full display"	todd	Display of individual task in item display should include the name of the person who posted the task.	2004-08-25 13:58:14	17	5	0
Task: "Technical documentation"	todd	Technical manual needs to be augmented to include a guide to directories, variables, and database tables, along with administrative info for Piece server.	2004-08-25 14:04:25	17	5	0
Task: "URLs with colons"	todd	URLs posted in text that have colons in them are having the portion from the colon on chopped off from being linkified (see http://www.groupspace.org/base2/groups/AF_Internal/marea/?marea_id=1&obj_id=1&obj_type=discoitem for an example). This should be fixed.	2004-08-25 21:26:03	17	5	2
New Document: "Screenshot - Mushed view"	todd	This is a screenshot from the AF group of a meeting area as it appears on my home computer (Netscape 7.1/Windows 98). Note the mushed-together dropdowns in the item viewer control panel, and contrast to the next document, a screenshot in which the mushing has disappeared.	2004-08-26 10:26:37	0	55	2
New Document: "Screenshot - okay view"	todd	Now here's how this meeting area displays on my home machine - dropdowns look okay. Contrast with item 8.	2004-08-26 10:28:49	0	56	0
Task: "Mushed dropdowns sometimes"	todd	Sometimes the item viewer control panel displays okay in Netscape 7.1/Windows 98, and sometimes not. See the screenshots in items 8 (http://www.groupspace.org/base2/groups/Deme_013_Deve/marea/?marea_id=1&obj_id=3&obj_type=doc) and 9 (http://www.groupspace.org/base2/groups/Deme_013_Deve/marea/?marea_id=1&obj_id=4&obj_type=doc)	2004-08-26 10:33:39	17	5	2
Task: "Linkify task descriptions"	todd	Recognition of URLs and linkification need to be added to task descriptions. Can this be enabled for all text entry in a more general way? I'm creating a new category of task called "Inconsistency" to describe tasks like this which are not exactly bugs to be fixed but rather needs for consistent behavior.	2004-08-26 10:40:25	17	5	3
happen often?	andrew	Does this mushing happen often? I really don't know what could be causing it... Those objects are drawn at very specific pixel locations... if they are deviating from those locations there's not much I can do... I can't make the locations any more strict. Although, I didn't write this code, so perhaps I should do some research into the methods used by whoever wrote it to see if perhaps there is a better alternative. In general, this is the big problem with html (and java) in my opinion. You, as a programmer, give the program "general guidelines" as to how you want the layout to happen, but the final result is always determined by the display engine. In c/c++ there is no intermediary display engine, so displaying objects requires extra-legwork, but it is always displayed exactly how you want it. I'm over-simplifying the actual situation with both of these systems, but I'm doing so to explain that these issue are very hard to control, especially across multiple browsers. As a side note, that's why I'm so impressed with OddPost. They seemed to get pass this barrier quite well. I think that part of the reason why they were so successful is because they are strict about only supporting IE browsers. That does cover a large portion of the market, but it's definitely not something we want to do as an open source project. ~Andrew ------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-26 10:26:37.------ :This is a screenshot from the AF group of a meeting area as it appears on my home computer (Netscape 7.1/Windows 98). Note the mushed-together dropdowns in the item viewer control panel, and contrast to the next document, a screenshot in which the mushing has disappeared.	2004-08-26 11:59:07	117	55	1
Re: happen often?	todd	The puzzling thing to me is why it differs even within my browser, just depending on which group I am viewing. It would be nice to know why that is happening. I agree that we can't just support IE. The problem right now is, I think, that Microsoft is trying to use its dominance of the browser market to deliberately thwart standardization, which is the biggest threat to them as a company. This really works against projects like ours that need to be browser-independent and yet do not have the resources of Google or Yahoo to test and tailor to each browser. But we'll keep plugging away. Deme is in good enough shape now that I think it will be easier to sell to outside funders who could make it into a broadly usable tool. ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-08-26 11:59:07.------ :Does this mushing happen often? I really don't know what could be causing it... Those objects are drawn at very specific pixel locations... if they are deviating from those locations there's not much I can do... I can't make the locations any more strict. Although, I didn't write this code, so perhaps I should do some research into the methods used by whoever wrote it to see if perhaps there is a better alternative. : :In general, this is the big problem with html (and java) in my opinion. You, as a programmer, give the program "general guidelines" as to how you want the layout to happen, but the final result is always determined by the display engine. In c/c++ there is no intermediary display engine, so displaying objects requires extra-legwork, but it is always displayed exactly how you want it. I'm over-simplifying the actual situation with both of these systems, but I'm doing so to explain that these issue are very hard to control, especially across multiple browsers. : :As a side note, that's why I'm so impressed with OddPost. They seemed to get pass this barrier quite well. I think that part of the reason why they were so successful is because they are strict about only supporting IE browsers. That does cover a large portion of the market, but it's definitely not something we want to do as an open source project. : :~Andrew : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-26 10:26:37.------ ::This is a screenshot from the AF group of a meeting area as it appears on my home computer (Netscape 7.1/Windows 98). Note the mushed-together dropdowns in the item viewer control panel, and contrast to the next document, a screenshot in which the mushing has disappeared.	2004-08-26 12:35:39	121	55	0
New Document: "Admin Docs"	andrew	Here is the first draft of the Admin docs. I'm sure it's riddled with inaccuracies and bad grammar, but it's just a quick stab and a large and very important subject. I'm posting it as plain text. Note that it's also located at www.groupspace.org/dev-manual-files/admin_dos.txt	2004-08-26 16:07:19	0	59	2
interesting	andrew	That's interesting that links are highlighted inside the plain-text document I just posted. Is that desirable? ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-08-26 16:07:19.------ :Here is the first draft of the Admin docs. I'm sure it's riddled with inaccuracies and bad grammar, but it's just a quick stab and a large and very important subject. I'm posting it as plain text. Note that it's also located at www.groupspace.org/dev-manual-files/admin_dos.txt :	2004-08-26 16:09:54	123	59	1
Task: "Error clicking on link item"	todd	I posted the following link item in the AF Internal group's meeting area: http://www.groupspace.org/base2/groups/AF_Internal/marea/?marea_id=1&obj_id=3&obj_type=link. When I try to click on the link in the item display, however, I get the following error message and no page loads: "---- PEAR error! DB Error: syntax error SELECT * FROM links LEFT JOIN folio_items fi ON fi.indiv_type_id = links.link_id LEFT JOIN tags ON tags.item_id = fi.item_id WHERE fi.type_id = 3 AND link_id = Notice: Undefined index: obj_id in /var/www/html/pod/base2/code/marea/linkframeset.php on line 9 [nativecode=1064 ** You have an error in your SQL syntax near ' Notice: Undefined index: obj_id in /var/www/html/pod/base2/cod' at line 4] ---- end PEAR error message."	2004-08-26 22:09:24	17	5	4
I think it's good	todd	Linkifying was done last winter, and is a good thing, I think. The admin doc looks really useful. Thanks, Andrew! ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-08-26 16:09:54.------ :That's interesting that links are highlighted inside the plain-text document I just posted. Is that desirable? : :------ andrew wrote on: 2004-08-26 16:07:19.------ ::Here is the first draft of the Admin docs. I'm sure it's riddled with inaccuracies and bad grammar, but it's just a quick stab and a large and very important subject. I'm posting it as plain text. Note that it's also located at www.groupspace.org/dev-manual-files/admin_dos.txt ::	2004-08-26 22:23:23	124	59	0
Link: "Del.icio.us"	todd	An interesting social bookmarking site that was mentioned at tonight's 501 Tech Club meeting in sf.	2004-08-26 22:53:35	0	61	0
Can't recreate	andrew	Hi Todd, I've been working on this error, and I can't seem to recreate it... I get the same error as you (it is an issue with no sending the proper GET variables along with the link url) in the AF groups, but when I create a new link with the exact same url you used in my dev2 test area, I can't recreate a faulty link. It's working there, which is odd... I think I need a couple things. First of all, please confirm that only the old POD site link generates this error, that's what I'm getting. Second, outline the steps you took when creating this error. You don't need to go into gory detail, but if you did something you don't normally do, let me know. I'm missing something... but I'm not sure what it is... I bet it's something really easy and simple... I'm probably too tired to spot it right now. I'll take another look first thing in the morning. ~Andrew ------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-26 22:09:24.------ :I posted the following link item in the AF Internal group's meeting area: :http://www.groupspace.org/base2/groups/AF_Internal/marea/?marea_id=1&obj_id=3&obj_type=link. : :When I try to click on the link in the item display, however, I get the following error message and no page loads: : :"---- PEAR error! : :DB Error: syntax error :SELECT * FROM links :LEFT JOIN folio_items fi ON fi.indiv_type_id = links.link_id :LEFT JOIN tags ON tags.item_id = fi.item_id :WHERE fi.type_id = 3 AND link_id = :Notice: Undefined index: obj_id in /var/www/html/pod/base2/code/marea/linkframeset.php on line 9 :[nativecode=1064 ** You have an error in your SQL syntax near ' :Notice: Undefined index: obj_id in /var/www/html/pod/base2/cod' at line 4] : :---- end PEAR error message."	2004-08-26 23:32:36	125	5	1
Link: "Stephen's Web comment"	todd	A remark about old POD from before the July release, with a response from me.	2004-08-26 23:39:11	0	62	0
Hmmm	todd	I've only gotten this error once, and have successfully posted old POD sites as link items (e.g. in this meeting area). I just copied the URL from Emmy's message, deleted the meeting area portion of it so it referred directly to the old AF group homepage, and posted it with the preface. Hard to imagine what could have gone wrong. ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-08-26 23:32:36.------ :Hi Todd, I've been working on this error, and I can't seem to recreate it... I get the same error as you (it is an issue with no sending the proper GET variables along with the link url) in the AF groups, but when I create a new link with the exact same url you used in my dev2 test area, I can't recreate a faulty link. It's working there, which is odd... : :I think I need a couple things. First of all, please confirm that only the old POD site link generates this error, that's what I'm getting. :Second, outline the steps you took when creating this error. You don't need to go into gory detail, but if you did something you don't normally do, let me know. : :I'm missing something... but I'm not sure what it is... I bet it's something really easy and simple... I'm probably too tired to spot it right now. I'll take another look first thing in the morning. :~Andrew : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-26 22:09:24.------ ::I posted the following link item in the AF Internal group's meeting area: ::http://www.groupspace.org/base2/groups/AF_Internal/marea/?marea_id=1&obj_id=3&obj_type=link. :: ::When I try to click on the link in the item display, however, I get the following error message and no page loads: :: ::"---- PEAR error! :: ::DB Error: syntax error ::SELECT * FROM links ::LEFT JOIN folio_items fi ON fi.indiv_type_id = links.link_id ::LEFT JOIN tags ON tags.item_id = fi.item_id ::WHERE fi.type_id = 3 AND link_id = ::Notice: Undefined index: obj_id in /var/www/html/pod/base2/code/marea/linkframeset.php on line 9 ::[nativecode=1064 ** You have an error in your SQL syntax near ' ::Notice: Undefined index: obj_id in /var/www/html/pod/base2/cod' at line 4] :: ::---- end PEAR error message."	2004-08-26 23:48:21	128	5	0
New Document: "Screenshot - chopped off URL"	todd	This screenshot from my home computer illustrates a problem with including the URL in the control panel of the link browser for link item types.	2004-08-27 00:27:22	0	63	5
Task: "Remove URL from minibrowser"	todd	For link item types, minibrowser includes URL when a link is clicked on in the item display. However, if the link is long, it skips to the next link, which causes it to be chopped off in some browsers. See item 12 screenshot for an example.	2004-08-27 00:30:06	17	5	1
agreed	andrew	First of all, you're right that the URL is a problem. I could set it so that the actual link displayed shows the first 20 characters and the last 20 characters only... 20 is arbitrary. Let me explain by example: The following link: http://www.IamReallyLong.com/extra/long/url/that/just/keeps/going/and/going/forever.html would be displayed as: http://www.IamReallyLong.com/.../going/forever.html Would this be preferable to completely removing the link? On a side note: Wow... Deme looks almost unusuable on this screen size... Perhaps it would be worth while to eventually implement a "small deme" where there would only be one viewing pane, but this pane would have a toolbar with buttons for each pane type. The buttons would allow you to switch from one pane to another. The popout pane that we have already sort of serve this function, but I can imagine that dealing with multiple popout panes would be come a pain on such a small screen. ~Andrew ------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-27 00:27:22.------ :This screenshot from my home computer illustrates a problem with including the URL in the control panel of the link browser for link item types.	2004-08-27 09:42:44	131	63	4
Re: agreed	todd	Chopping up the URL is an option, but I think it's better to get rid of it, and instead have something like a "Show URL" button in the minibrowswer control panel. A general principle we could apply would be to make all control panel functions of fixed size, avoid the resizing and unpredictable rendering. This might solve the mushing problem in the item viewer control panel too. Just cut off the names of items if they don't fit into the fixed width navigation bar - that will encourage people to make them shorter. An option I like even better, though it requires more code, is to limit the length of item names when the user enters them, just return an error that says "Sorry, an item name can be at most n characters." Deme is not unusable on my low-res screen, but I agree that a single-frame version is needed in the future. It could be used on handheld devices, for example, or for people who just don't like the multipane view. I checked out Deme on my friend's cellphone in japan. It was surprisingly good, but obviously single frame would make it much more usable. Todd ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-08-27 09:42:44.------ :First of all, you're right that the URL is a problem. I could set it so that the actual link displayed shows the first 20 characters and the last 20 characters only... 20 is arbitrary. Let me explain by example: : :The following link: http://www.IamReallyLong.com/extra/long/url/that/just/keeps/going/and/going/forever.html :would be displayed as: : :http://www.IamReallyLong.com/.../going/forever.html : :Would this be preferable to completely removing the link? : :On a side note: :Wow... Deme looks almost unusuable on this screen size... Perhaps it would be worth while to eventually implement a "small deme" where there would only be one viewing pane, but this pane would have a toolbar with buttons for each pane type. The buttons would allow you to switch from one pane to another. The popout pane that we have already sort of serve this function, but I can imagine that dealing with multiple popout panes would be come a pain on such a small screen. :~Andrew : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-27 00:27:22.------ ::This screenshot from my home computer illustrates a problem with including the URL in the control panel of the link browser for link item types.	2004-08-27 09:57:49	133	63	3
Clarifying	todd	I was thinking that the "Show URL" button would lead to a popup, similar to the "Link to this item" links. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-27 09:57:49.------ :Chopping up the URL is an option, but I think it's better to get rid of it, and instead have something like a "Show URL" button in the minibrowswer control panel. : :A general principle we could apply would be to make all control panel functions of fixed size, avoid the resizing and unpredictable rendering. This might solve the mushing problem in the item viewer control panel too. Just cut off the names of items if they don't fit into the fixed width navigation bar - that will encourage people to make them shorter. An option I like even better, though it requires more code, is to limit the length of item names when the user enters them, just return an error that says "Sorry, an item name can be at most n characters." : :Deme is not unusable on my low-res screen, but I agree that a single-frame version is needed in the future. It could be used on handheld devices, for example, or for people who just don't like the multipane view. I checked out Deme on my friend's cellphone in japan. It was surprisingly good, but obviously single frame would make it much more usable. : :Todd : :------ andrew wrote on: 2004-08-27 09:42:44.------ ::First of all, you're right that the URL is a problem. I could set it so that the actual link displayed shows the first 20 characters and the last 20 characters only... 20 is arbitrary. Let me explain by example: :: ::The following link: http://www.IamReallyLong.com/extra/long/url/that/just/keeps/going/and/going/forever.html ::would be displayed as: :: ::http://www.IamReallyLong.com/.../going/forever.html :: ::Would this be preferable to completely removing the link? :: ::On a side note: ::Wow... Deme looks almost unusuable on this screen size... Perhaps it would be worth while to eventually implement a "small deme" where there would only be one viewing pane, but this pane would have a toolbar with buttons for each pane type. The buttons would allow you to switch from one pane to another. The popout pane that we have already sort of serve this function, but I can imagine that dealing with multiple popout panes would be come a pain on such a small screen. ::~Andrew :: ::------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-27 00:27:22.------ :::This screenshot from my home computer illustrates a problem with including the URL in the control panel of the link browser for link item types.	2004-08-27 09:58:49	134	63	1
cell phone deme?	andrew	I'd love to see Deme on a cell. That's amazing. Next time I see someone with a webphone I'll make them go to this address. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-27 09:57:49.------ :Chopping up the URL is an option, but I think it's better to get rid of it, and instead have something like a "Show URL" button in the minibrowswer control panel. : :A general principle we could apply would be to make all control panel functions of fixed size, avoid the resizing and unpredictable rendering. This might solve the mushing problem in the item viewer control panel too. Just cut off the names of items if they don't fit into the fixed width navigation bar - that will encourage people to make them shorter. An option I like even better, though it requires more code, is to limit the length of item names when the user enters them, just return an error that says "Sorry, an item name can be at most n characters." : :Deme is not unusable on my low-res screen, but I agree that a single-frame version is needed in the future. It could be used on handheld devices, for example, or for people who just don't like the multipane view. I checked out Deme on my friend's cellphone in japan. It was surprisingly good, but obviously single frame would make it much more usable. : :Todd : :------ andrew wrote on: 2004-08-27 09:42:44.------ ::First of all, you're right that the URL is a problem. I could set it so that the actual link displayed shows the first 20 characters and the last 20 characters only... 20 is arbitrary. Let me explain by example: :: ::The following link: http://www.IamReallyLong.com/extra/long/url/that/just/keeps/going/and/going/forever.html ::would be displayed as: :: ::http://www.IamReallyLong.com/.../going/forever.html :: ::Would this be preferable to completely removing the link? :: ::On a side note: ::Wow... Deme looks almost unusuable on this screen size... Perhaps it would be worth while to eventually implement a "small deme" where there would only be one viewing pane, but this pane would have a toolbar with buttons for each pane type. The buttons would allow you to switch from one pane to another. The popout pane that we have already sort of serve this function, but I can imagine that dealing with multiple popout panes would be come a pain on such a small screen. ::~Andrew :: ::------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-27 00:27:22.------ :::This screenshot from my home computer illustrates a problem with including the URL in the control panel of the link browser for link item types.	2004-08-27 10:28:40	134	63	0
Link: "The af group link test"	andrew	This link produced odd results in the AF group. We are retesting the exact same link here. Note: it has no trailing slash.	2004-08-27 12:57:37	0	65	3
Task: "Target uploaded files to item display"	todd	As much as possible, files that can be rendered inside the user's web browser should target the item display frame, rather than a new window (e.g. image/media files).	2004-08-27 14:51:35	17	5	0
Update: "Email notification of task updates"	andrew	'andrew' completed this task on August 27th, 2004, 16:54	2004-08-27 16:54:06	101	5	0
Task: "Fixed-width nav bar"	todd	The navigation bar in the item viewer control panel should be a fixed width. The mushing problem I had on my home computer is definitely caused by resizing, since it is too big to fit on one line and is therefore placed one line down, interfering with the action bar. A longer term solution is to limit the number of characters in an item name.	2004-08-28 11:27:18	17	5	0
Update: "Mushed dropdowns sometimes"	todd	'todd' deleted this task on August 28th, 2004, 11:38	2004-08-28 11:38:27	119	5	1
explanation	todd	I deleted this task because it's addressed in new task 4.ay (http://www.groupspace.org/base2/groups/Deme_013_Deve/marea/?marea_id=1&obj_id=51&obj_type=task). ------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-28 11:38:27.------ : : :'todd' deleted this task on August 28th, 2004, 11:38	2004-08-28 11:40:16	141	5	0
Discussion Item: "Changing name of this item type"	todd	I think we should change "Discussion Item" to the "Question" item type, just to make it a little more distinct from other item types. Any thoughts?	2004-08-28 14:31:39	0	68	0
New day - new opinion	todd	I've revised my thinking on this. I think it would be okay to have a URL window of fixed size like in most browsers, which just chops off the end but lets you highlight and scroll to it. That would make the minibrowser more browser-like. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-27 09:58:49.------ :I was thinking that the "Show URL" button would lead to a popup, similar to the "Link to this item" links. : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-27 09:57:49.------ ::Chopping up the URL is an option, but I think it's better to get rid of it, and instead have something like a "Show URL" button in the minibrowswer control panel. :: ::A general principle we could apply would be to make all control panel functions of fixed size, avoid the resizing and unpredictable rendering. This might solve the mushing problem in the item viewer control panel too. Just cut off the names of items if they don't fit into the fixed width navigation bar - that will encourage people to make them shorter. An option I like even better, though it requires more code, is to limit the length of item names when the user enters them, just return an error that says "Sorry, an item name can be at most n characters." :: ::Deme is not unusable on my low-res screen, but I agree that a single-frame version is needed in the future. It could be used on handheld devices, for example, or for people who just don't like the multipane view. I checked out Deme on my friend's cellphone in japan. It was surprisingly good, but obviously single frame would make it much more usable. :: ::Todd :: ::------ andrew wrote on: 2004-08-27 09:42:44.------ :::First of all, you're right that the URL is a problem. I could set it so that the actual link displayed shows the first 20 characters and the last 20 characters only... 20 is arbitrary. Let me explain by example: ::: :::The following link: http://www.IamReallyLong.com/extra/long/url/that/just/keeps/going/and/going/forever.html :::would be displayed as: ::: :::http://www.IamReallyLong.com/.../going/forever.html ::: :::Would this be preferable to completely removing the link? ::: :::On a side note: :::Wow... Deme looks almost unusuable on this screen size... Perhaps it would be worth while to eventually implement a "small deme" where there would only be one viewing pane, but this pane would have a toolbar with buttons for each pane type. The buttons would allow you to switch from one pane to another. The popout pane that we have already sort of serve this function, but I can imagine that dealing with multiple popout panes would be come a pain on such a small screen. :::~Andrew ::: :::------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-27 00:27:22.------ ::::This screenshot from my home computer illustrates a problem with including the URL in the control panel of the link browser for link item types.	2004-08-28 14:34:58	135	63	0
Update: "Fixed-width URL box in minibrowser"	todd	Updated on August 28th, 2004, 14:39 by todd -Title changed from 'Remove URL from minibrowser' to 'Fixed-width URL box in minibrowser' -Description changed from 'For link item types, minibrowser includes URL when a link is clicked on in the item display. However, if the link is long, it skips to the next link, which causes it to be chopped off in some browsers. See item 12 screenshot for an example.' to 'For link item types, minibrowser includes URL when a link is clicked on in the item display. However, if the link is long, it skips to the next link, which causes it to be chopped off in some browsers. See item 12 screenshot for an example. As a solution, create a URL box that displays the URL. I don\\'t think it should be editable by the viewer, though - then it would be a little web browser, which would spoil the WYSIWIS character of the item display.'	2004-08-28 14:39:08	132	5	0
New Document: "Mis-highlighted comment"	todd	You can see here the problem referred to in the "Mis-highlighted comment" bug I am about to post on Deme 0.3 project. Comment reader header's itemref should not be highlighted, but it is.	2004-08-28 15:00:39	0	69	0
Task: "Mis-highlighted comment"	todd	Comment reader header's itemref for a selected comment stays highlighted after the item index is selected in the item viewer. It should unhighlight like the corresponding itemref in the comments index.	2004-08-28 15:03:28	17	5	1
Update: "Mis-highlighted comment"	todd	Updated on August 28th, 2004, 15:04 by todd -Description changed from 'Comment reader header's itemref for a selected comment stays highlighted after the item index is selected in the item viewer. It should unhighlight like the corresponding itemref in the comments index.' to 'Comment reader header\\'s itemref for a selected comment stays highlighted after the item index is selected in the item viewer. It should unhighlight like the corresponding itemref in the comments index. See item 15 for a screenshot showing the problem.'	2004-08-28 15:04:23	147	5	0
Task: "Targeting of internal links"	todd	Links internal to a meeting area (e.g. a URL embedded in a comment or document that refers to an item or comment in that meeting area, placed in via "Like to this item/comment") should, when clicked on, load in the appropriate viewer within the standard view of the meeting area, rather than opening up a full new browser window with another version of the meeting area. This requires recognizing the difference between internal and external links - the external ones should pop out to a new browser window.	2004-08-28 15:09:21	17	5	0
hah!	brendan	that's the standard linux mozilla behavior for a standard html textarea. the emacs implementation is for v0.3 ------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-24 15:00:33.------ :I just figured out that text editing boxes support Emacs commands. Cool! Is this a full-blown Emacs editor in the middle of Deme?	2004-08-29 18:09:21	103	0	2
sourceforge update	brendan	to get deme.sf.net you need to register a whole new project so I went ahead and submitted a new application. they'll probably get back in a few days. Andrew, register an account with sourceforge when you get the chance (have you already?) and then you can be another proud project admin, if we ever actually start using the sourceforge resources ;)	2004-08-29 18:26:25	106	3	1
Re: hah!	todd	Thanks - yeah, Andrew pointed that out to me. Still neat though. ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-08-29 18:09:21.------ :that's the standard linux mozilla behavior for a standard html textarea. the emacs implementation is for v0.3 : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-24 15:00:33.------ ::I just figured out that text editing boxes support Emacs commands. Cool! Is this a full-blown Emacs editor in the middle of Deme?	2004-08-29 20:08:59	150	0	0
Re: hah!	todd	Testing - had a problem with posting a response before. ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-08-29 18:09:21.------ :that's the standard linux mozilla behavior for a standard html textarea. the emacs implementation is for v0.3 : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-24 15:00:33.------ ::I just figured out that text editing boxes support Emacs commands. Cool! Is this a full-blown Emacs editor in the middle of Deme?	2004-08-29 20:09:52	150	0	0
Task: "Problem with blank subject responses"	todd	Responding to a comment, if you leave the subject blank, you don't get the standard comment posted behavior after posting - you get what looks like debugging code. The comment posts, but the meeting area does not refresh automatically. This is confusing and will probably lead to multiple posts.	2004-08-29 20:12:37	17	5	4
note - new in 0.3	todd	This bug is new with v0.3.0 I think. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-29 20:12:37.------ :Responding to a comment, if you leave the subject blank, you don't get the standard comment posted behavior after posting - you get what looks like debugging code. The comment posts, but the meeting area does not refresh automatically. This is confusing and will probably lead to multiple posts.	2004-08-29 20:15:32	154	5	0
Task: "Task lettering problem"	todd	Task lettering goes from az to baa, then bab, etc. Should go from az to ba, bb, ...	2004-08-29 20:17:26	17	5	7
Thanks, Brendan	todd	So Tom says he's seen you twice in his 5 days in berlin. Small town, eh? ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-08-29 18:26:25.------ :to get deme.sf.net you need to register a whole new project so I went ahead and submitted a new application. they'll probably get back in a few days. Andrew, register an account with sourceforge when you get the chance (have you already?) and then you can be another proud project admin, if we ever actually start using the sourceforge resources ;)	2004-08-29 20:19:55	151	3	0
New Document: "Screenshot - login locking"	todd	This shows the screen for the bug "login locking" listed in the project tasks.	2004-09-06 18:26:00	0	74	0
Task: "Login locking"	todd	After being away from my computer for a few hours (Netsc 7.1/Windows 98), viewing a meeting area, when I clicked on an itemref (for Rorty's paper, see item 16 - http://www.groupspace.org/base2/groups/Deme_013_Deve/marea/?marea_id=1&obj_id=8&obj_type=doc) I got login screens in both the comment display and item display frames. Clicking through to login in the comment display did not resolve the problem, however. Instead I got the login screen with "Loading..." in the item display frame, and was unable to load anything in the item display (i. e. item ref clicking on Rorty item again didn't work. The screenshot shows the screen after it is locked.	2004-09-06 18:31:28	17	5	0
this brings up a policy decision	brendan	The /base2 syntax is important because we have multiple installations of deme. /base1 was an older codebase that several old groups like labortech. /base2 is the current installation. /dev and /dev2 are only for internal development. The problem with referencing the groupname straight out of the groupspace.org root is that if we do another non-backwards-compatible update requiring the addition of a new codebase, then the old groupnames will clash with the new ones. For example, I actually implemented these short url's for some of the old base1 groups. (e.g. groupspace.org/labortech uses the old /base1/labortech). if you want to make a new group "labortech" it's going to be /base2/labortech, but /labortech still goes to the defunct /base1. Are we mature enough that we should no longer worry about multiple versions of alpha-ish software? That is, we should be ready to give all groups their permanent url's? That means we have to commit to being able to transfer data from every installation forward -- something that was too hard for the transition from /base1 to /base2. This would come at the expense of speed of Deme development. Also, there are potential nameclashes with other files in the groupspace.org root -- all our About pages and such are stored there, and it's conceivable we could add more, and might add a page with the same name as one of the groups. groupspace.org/GROUPNAME gives users control over the root namespace... we'd have to create our own /groupspace/ for /groupspace/about.php etc... Putting the namespace of groupnames inside its own subdir is much simpler. Maybe we don't have to use the hard-to-remember "/base2" -- "/groups" perhaps -- but then all the new names that pop up are contained within their own namespace without cluttering anything else up, and we don't have to worry about nameclashes with unrelated files that aren't groupnames. if i haven't explained this well, we should talk this over in person, it's not worth wasting our time trying to spell these things out in a forum ------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-19 13:30:25.------ :Groups should be reachable via www.groupspace.org/GROUPNAME rather than the more elaborate /base2 syntax.	2004-09-07 07:39:09	86	5	1
bug fixed	brendan	That was actually a bug affecting all views of Link items, bug was in view-link.inc.php. Fix is now in dev2, cvs, and base2. ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-08-27 12:57:37.------ :This link produced odd results in the AF group. We are retesting the exact same link here. Note: it has no trailing slash.	2004-09-07 07:46:07	137	65	2
Task: "My Groups (aka user homepage) needs to look different"	brendan	Currently, the user homepage, or My Groups page, looks exactly like a group homepage. This is confusing: the groups you belong to are in the left sidebar which looks exactly like the left sidebar of a group homepage that lists meeting areas. This confusese the difference between a meeting area and a group. Already, when I navigated to My Groups, and saw "AF Internal" on the left, I was thinking, "what? I thought AF Internal was a group, not a meeting area!" but it actualyl was a group, the interface confused me. We need to draw out a new design, maybe change the color scheme, put on some very obvious titles across the top and such. We also have to spell out what will in the end appear on this page. (maybe this has already been done?)	2004-09-07 07:51:00	17	5	5
Update: "My Groups needs to look differ"	brendan	Updated on September 7th, 2004, 07:52 by brendan -Title changed from 'My Groups (aka user homepage) needs to look differ' to 'My Groups needs to look differ' -Description changed from 'Currently, the user homepage, or My Groups page, looks exactly like a group homepage. This is confusing: the groups you belong to are in the left sidebar which looks exactly like the left sidebar of a group homepage that lists meeting areas. This confusese the difference between a meeting area and a group. Already, when I navigated to My Groups, and saw "AF Internal" on the left, I was thinking, "what? I thought AF Internal was a group, not a meeting area!" but it actualyl was a group, the interface confused me. We need to draw out a new design, maybe change the color scheme, put on some very obvious titles across the top and such. We also have to spell out what will in the end appear on this page. (maybe this has already been done?)' to 'Currently, the user homepage, or My Groups page, looks exactly like a group homepage. This is confusing: the groups you belong to are in the left sidebar which looks exactly like the left sidebar of a group homepage that lists meeting areas. This confusese the difference between a meeting area and a group. Already, when I navigated to My Groups, and saw \\"AF Internal\\" on the left, I was thinking, \\"what? I thought AF Internal was a group, not a meeting area!\\" but it actualyl was a group, the interface confused me. We need to draw out a new design, maybe change the color scheme, put on some very obvious titles across the top and such. We also have to spell out what will in the end appear on this page. (maybe this has already been done?)'	2004-09-07 07:52:59	162	5	2
Task: "Magic spaces in Mac Netscape"	todd	In Netscape 7.0, Mac 0S 9 and 10 (verified on both the AF Mac and Tom's office Mac), when "Comment on item" is selected for a text document, only one green insertion space per line appears in the document, at the beginning of each line. It should place magic spaces between each pair of words and at the end of each line. This appears to be Mac-specific.	2004-09-07 15:00:15	17	5	0
Update: "My Groups needs to look differ"	todd	Updated on September 7th, 2004, 15:01 by todd -Description changed from 'Currently, the user homepage, or My Groups page, looks exactly like a group homepage. This is confusing: the groups you belong to are in the left sidebar which looks exactly like the left sidebar of a group homepage that lists meeting areas. This confusese the difference between a meeting area and a group. Already, when I navigated to My Groups, and saw "AF Internal" on the left, I was thinking, "what? I thought AF Internal was a group, not a meeting area!" but it actualyl was a group, the interface confused me. We need to draw out a new design, maybe change the color scheme, put on some very obvious titles across the top and such. We also have to spell out what will in the end appear on this page. (maybe this has already been done?)' to 'Currently, the user homepage, or My Groups page, looks exactly like a group homepage. This is confusing: the groups you belong to are in the left sidebar which looks exactly like the left sidebar of a group homepage that lists meeting areas. This confusese the difference between a meeting area and a group. Already, when I navigated to My Groups, and saw \\"AF Internal\\" on the left, I was thinking, \\"what? I thought AF Internal was a group, not a meeting area!\\" but it actualyl was a group, the interface confused me. We need to draw out a new design, maybe change the color scheme, put on some very obvious titles across the top and such. We also have to spell out what will in the end appear on this page. (maybe this has already been done?)' -Category changed from 'Bug' to 'UI Tweak'	2004-09-07 15:01:54	162	5	1
Actually...	todd	I only changed the category, from bug to UI Tweak. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-09-07 15:01:54.------ :Updated on September 7th, 2004, 15:01 by todd :-Description changed from 'Currently, the user homepage, or My Groups page, looks exactly like a group homepage. This is confusing: the groups you belong to are in the left sidebar which looks exactly like the left sidebar of a group homepage that lists meeting areas. This confusese the difference between a meeting area and a group. Already, when I navigated to My Groups, and saw "AF Internal" on the left, I was thinking, "what? I thought AF Internal was a group, not a meeting area!" but it actualyl was a group, the interface confused me. : :We need to draw out a new design, maybe change the color scheme, put on some very obvious titles across the top and such. We also have to spell out what will in the end appear on this page. (maybe this has already been done?)' to 'Currently, the user homepage, or My Groups page, looks exactly like a group homepage. This is confusing: the groups you belong to are in the left sidebar which looks exactly like the left sidebar of a group homepage that lists meeting areas. This confusese the difference between a meeting area and a group. Already, when I navigated to My Groups, and saw \\"AF Internal\\" on the left, I was thinking, \\"what? I thought AF Internal was a group, not a meeting area!\\" but it actualyl was a group, the interface confused me. : :We need to draw out a new design, maybe change the color scheme, put on some very obvious titles across the top and such. We also have to spell out what will in the end appear on this page. (maybe this has already been done?)' :-Category changed from 'Bug' to 'UI Tweak'	2004-09-07 15:03:50	165	5	0
I agree mostly	todd	Need to make it less confusingly similar. A common scheme is not bad, though, so I'm not sure changing the color scheme would be effective. ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-09-07 07:52:59.------ :Updated on September 7th, 2004, 07:52 by brendan :-Title changed from 'My Groups (aka user homepage) needs to look differ' to 'My Groups needs to look differ' :-Description changed from 'Currently, the user homepage, or My Groups page, looks exactly like a group homepage. This is confusing: the groups you belong to are in the left sidebar which looks exactly like the left sidebar of a group homepage that lists meeting areas. This confusese the difference between a meeting area and a group. Already, when I navigated to My Groups, and saw "AF Internal" on the left, I was thinking, "what? I thought AF Internal was a group, not a meeting area!" but it actualyl was a group, the interface confused me. : :We need to draw out a new design, maybe change the color scheme, put on some very obvious titles across the top and such. We also have to spell out what will in the end appear on this page. (maybe this has already been done?)' to 'Currently, the user homepage, or My Groups page, looks exactly like a group homepage. This is confusing: the groups you belong to are in the left sidebar which looks exactly like the left sidebar of a group homepage that lists meeting areas. This confusese the difference between a meeting area and a group. Already, when I navigated to My Groups, and saw \\"AF Internal\\" on the left, I was thinking, \\"what? I thought AF Internal was a group, not a meeting area!\\" but it actualyl was a group, the interface confused me. : :We need to draw out a new design, maybe change the color scheme, put on some very obvious titles across the top and such. We also have to spell out what will in the end appear on this page. (maybe this has already been done?)'	2004-09-07 15:05:59	163	5	1
Update: "Error clicking on link item"	todd	'todd' completed this task on September 7th, 2004, 15:09	2004-09-07 15:09:39	125	5	0
Thanks, Brendan	todd	I've marked the task completed (#4.av). ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-09-07 07:46:07.------ :That was actually a bug affecting all views of Link items, bug was in view-link.inc.php. Fix is now in dev2, cvs, and base2. : :------ andrew wrote on: 2004-08-27 12:57:37.------ ::This link produced odd results in the AF group. We are retesting the exact same link here. Note: it has no trailing slash.	2004-09-07 15:11:15	161	65	0
Eventual goal	todd	I'd like us not to have compatibility breaks in the future if we can avoid it. If we can't commit to that now, we will need to soon. Rich Cowan expressed concern over this when we released 0.2, and said it would deter groups from using our site if we couldn't guarantee backward compatibility in future releases. For Groupspace.org, what I'm thinking is that we should index group names as subdomains, rather than subdirectories (GROUP.groupspace.org). That will make it possible to have email addresses of the form MEETING-AREA@GROUP.groupspace.org. I'm not sure how this should be done in the downloadable Deme, since other installations would not necessarily support subdomains. So I'm assuming we could create symbolic links from the subdirectories (e.g. /base2) to these subdomains on Groupspace.org, but that the software we release for other installations would not do this. Todd ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-09-07 07:39:09.------ :The /base2 syntax is important because we have multiple installations of deme. /base1 was an older codebase that several old groups like labortech. /base2 is the current installation. /dev and /dev2 are only for internal development. : :The problem with referencing the groupname straight out of the groupspace.org root is that if we do another non-backwards-compatible update requiring the addition of a new codebase, then the old groupnames will clash with the new ones. : :For example, I actually implemented these short url's for some of the old base1 groups. (e.g. groupspace.org/labortech uses the old /base1/labortech). if you want to make a new group "labortech" it's going to be /base2/labortech, but /labortech still goes to the defunct /base1. : :Are we mature enough that we should no longer worry about multiple versions of alpha-ish software? That is, we should be ready to give all groups their permanent url's? That means we have to commit to being able to transfer data from every installation forward -- something that was too hard for the transition from /base1 to /base2. This would come at the expense of speed of Deme development. : :Also, there are potential nameclashes with other files in the groupspace.org root -- all our About pages and such are stored there, and it's conceivable we could add more, and might add a page with the same name as one of the groups. groupspace.org/GROUPNAME gives users control over the root namespace... we'd have to create our own /groupspace/ for /groupspace/about.php etc... : :Putting the namespace of groupnames inside its own subdir is much simpler. Maybe we don't have to use the hard-to-remember "/base2" -- "/groups" perhaps -- but then all the new names that pop up are contained within their own namespace without cluttering anything else up, and we don't have to worry about nameclashes with unrelated files that aren't groupnames. : :if i haven't explained this well, we should talk this over in person, it's not worth wasting our time trying to spell these things out in a forum : : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-19 13:30:25.------ ::Groups should be reachable via www.groupspace.org/GROUPNAME rather than the more elaborate /base2 syntax.	2004-09-07 15:22:18	160	5	0
Handler	todd	Brendan, if you want, you can make yourself the handler for this bug, which I've marked completed, to indicate that you were the one who fixed it. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-26 22:09:24.------ :I posted the following link item in the AF Internal group's meeting area: :http://www.groupspace.org/base2/groups/AF_Internal/marea/?marea_id=1&obj_id=3&obj_type=link. : :When I try to click on the link in the item display, however, I get the following error message and no page loads: : :"---- PEAR error! : :DB Error: syntax error :SELECT * FROM links :LEFT JOIN folio_items fi ON fi.indiv_type_id = links.link_id :LEFT JOIN tags ON tags.item_id = fi.item_id :WHERE fi.type_id = 3 AND link_id = :Notice: Undefined index: obj_id in /var/www/html/pod/base2/code/marea/linkframeset.php on line 9 :[nativecode=1064 ** You have an error in your SQL syntax near ' :Notice: Undefined index: obj_id in /var/www/html/pod/base2/cod' at line 4] : :---- end PEAR error message."	2004-09-07 15:24:48	125	5	0
Still produces error	todd	The original posted link in the AF meeting area still produces this error. Was the bug in conversion of the posted URL? Also, not sure what you mean that it affected all views of Link items. Other links (including the attempt to ducplicate) have displayed fine. ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-09-07 07:46:07.------ :That was actually a bug affecting all views of Link items, bug was in view-link.inc.php. Fix is now in dev2, cvs, and base2. : :------ andrew wrote on: 2004-08-27 12:57:37.------ ::This link produced odd results in the AF group. We are retesting the exact same link here. Note: it has no trailing slash.	2004-09-07 15:27:29	161	65	0
Item reference inheriting	todd	This didn't inherit the right item reference (to task 4.bae) - I'll post as a bug. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-09-07 15:05:59.------ :Need to make it less confusingly similar. A common scheme is not bad, though, so I'm not sure changing the color scheme would be effective. : :------ brendan wrote on: 2004-09-07 07:52:59.------ ::Updated on September 7th, 2004, 07:52 by brendan ::-Title changed from 'My Groups (aka user homepage) needs to look differ' to 'My Groups needs to look differ' ::-Description changed from 'Currently, the user homepage, or My Groups page, looks exactly like a group homepage. This is confusing: the groups you belong to are in the left sidebar which looks exactly like the left sidebar of a group homepage that lists meeting areas. This confusese the difference between a meeting area and a group. Already, when I navigated to My Groups, and saw "AF Internal" on the left, I was thinking, "what? I thought AF Internal was a group, not a meeting area!" but it actualyl was a group, the interface confused me. :: ::We need to draw out a new design, maybe change the color scheme, put on some very obvious titles across the top and such. We also have to spell out what will in the end appear on this page. (maybe this has already been done?)' to 'Currently, the user homepage, or My Groups page, looks exactly like a group homepage. This is confusing: the groups you belong to are in the left sidebar which looks exactly like the left sidebar of a group homepage that lists meeting areas. This confusese the difference between a meeting area and a group. Already, when I navigated to My Groups, and saw \\"AF Internal\\" on the left, I was thinking, \\"what? I thought AF Internal was a group, not a meeting area!\\" but it actualyl was a group, the interface confused me. :: ::We need to draw out a new design, maybe change the color scheme, put on some very obvious titles across the top and such. We also have to spell out what will in the end appear on this page. (maybe this has already been done?)'	2004-09-07 15:32:34	167	5	0
Task: "Item ref inheriting for tasks"	todd	Responding to an update comment for a task does not preserve the correct item reference for the task, but instead assigns item reference to the whole project. See http://www.groupspace.org/base2/groups/Deme_013_Deve/marea/?marea_id=1&msg_id=173 for an example.	2004-09-07 15:34:34	17	5	0
Update: "Group subdomains"	todd	Updated on September 7th, 2004, 15:40 by todd -Title changed from 'Simple group name URLs' to 'Group subdomains' -Description changed from 'Groups should be reachable via www.groupspace.org/GROUPNAME rather than the more elaborate /base2 syntax.' to 'Groups should be reachable via GROUP.groupspace.org rather than the more elaborate /base2 syntax. '	2004-09-07 15:40:25	86	5	0
Integration with manual	todd	It seems like this doc needs to be integrated with the developer's manual on the Wiki. Right now stuff is kind of hither tither - different wiki pages, PiecePrivate versus this, etc. Where is the best place to put this so it can be found easilly?	2004-09-07 16:33:47	0	79	0
Task: "Red-highlighting target space"	todd	Magic space that is selected during comment insertion for a document used to be highlighted red while the comment was being composed. It would be nice to restore that feature.	2004-09-07 16:35:25	17	5	0
Task: "Email notifications from author"	brendan	Currently, emails have their From: line as "Deme Notifier". The author who wrote it is in the start of the subject line, e.g. "andrew: ". It would be better to have the author in the From: line, so you'd have From: Andrew Parker gt; and then a normal email-style subject that's the same as the Deme subject header. Email programs are designed to make the From: line very promiment in the viewing interface, so we might as well take advantage of it there. It's confusing to deal with a 3rd entity in your email, this "Notifier." Many other web apps that send out automated emails use this convention too, even when the person didn't even write the message, but rather was the main force or intent behind it. For example, social network sites orkut.com and thefacebook.com both send invite notices with the From: line of the person who sent them, though they did not write the message text. Stanford's rescomp registration system does the same thing with requests to connect computers to the network. Finally, this is the same behavior as email lists, which we want to move towards to duplicate. Potential disadvantages: people might reply directly to the author too much or by accident. This is the same problem that email lists have. Also, people can't reply to the list before we have full mailing list functionality... so that might encourage offlist replies to an even greater degree.	2004-09-21 12:03:03	17	5	1
Good idea, but..	todd	I don't think we should implement this until posting-by-email is implemented, and then make the default reply-to a parameter (initially set to whole-group) that could be modified by the moderators (?) of the group. First stage would be a reduced form of email integration, I think, in which users could post and respond to comments, and attachments would show up as document items. Later, we could try to work in voting etc. by email. I haven't added this into this task list because I see that as part of the redesign that should come after the current bugs and UI fixes are done. ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-09-21 12:03:03.------ :Currently, emails have their From: line as "Deme Notifier". The author who wrote it is in the start of the subject line, e.g. "andrew: ". It would be better to have the author in the From: line, so you'd have : :From: Andrew Parker gt; : :and then a normal email-style subject that's the same as the Deme subject header. : :Email programs are designed to make the From: line very promiment in the viewing interface, so we might as well take advantage of it there. It's confusing to deal with a 3rd entity in your email, this "Notifier." Many other web apps that send out automated emails use this convention too, even when the person didn't even write the message, but rather was the main force or intent behind it. For example, social network sites orkut.com and thefacebook.com both send invite notices with the From: line of the person who sent them, though they did not write the message text. Stanford's rescomp registration system does the same thing with requests to connect computers to the network. Finally, this is the same behavior as email lists, which we want to move towards to duplicate. : :Potential disadvantages: people might reply directly to the author too much or by accident. This is the same problem that email lists have. Also, people can't reply to the list before we have full mailing list functionality... so that might encourage offlist replies to an even greater degree.	2004-09-24 11:32:51	178	5	0
Task: "Error responding w/blank subject"	todd	Tried to post a response to a comment in "Learn Deme Here" without entering a subject, and got the following error (no posting): INSERT msgs VALUES ( null, 'Re: Andy's explanation' , 'Thanks for the feedback, Steve. Navigation is done in both the left and right viewers (items and comments, respectively), which might be why you find it confusing. The idea is to allow easy cross-referencing between items (focuses of discussion, displayed on the left) and comments (displayed on the right). Any design suggestions you have would be appreciated - best to post them in the \\\\\\"Deme Discussion\\\\\\" meeting area instead of this one, though. Click the return to group home page link upper left to navigate back to the index of meeting areas. - Todd ------ guest wrote on: 2004-09-23 22:45:51.------ :Andy, this is my second attempt at a comment: my first is lost somewhere in cyberspace. : :For what it\\'s worth, this moderately experience computer user is not finding it easy to understand how Deme works. For example, it is inot intuitively clear to me which is the \\"nav\\" panel, the right or the left: they both seem to be doing the same things. : :Steve E. : :------ andy wrote on: 2004-07-15 11:05:57.------ ::This is the text announcing that a new document has been posted. Notice that this announcement appears in the comment reader (lower right pane) when the \\"item reference\\" for this comment is clicked in the discussion index (upper right pane). An item reference is an underlilned link to the item and, if applicable, the location within the item (i.e. a location within the text of a document), to which a comment is attached. It appears at the beginning of a comment header in the discussion index, and also within the comment reader header at the top of the comment reader pane.' , 1 , 103 , NOW() , 2 , 'todd' , 1 , 0 ) ---- db error! DB Error: syntax error INSERT msgs VALUES ( null, 'Re: Andy's explanation' , 'Thanks for the feedback, Steve. Navigation is done in both the left and right viewers (items and comments, respectively), which might be why you find it confusing. The idea is to allow easy cross-referencing between items (focuses of discussion, displayed on the left) and comments (displayed on the right). Any design suggestions you have would be appreciated - best to post them in the \\\\\\"Deme Discussion\\\\\\" meeting area instead of this one, though. Click the return to group home page link upper left to navigate back to the index of meeting areas. - Todd ------ guest wrote on: 2004-09-23 22:45:51.------ :Andy, this is my second attempt at a comment: my first is lost somewhere in cyberspace. : :For what it\\'s worth, this moderately experience computer user is not finding it easy to understand how Deme works. For example, it is inot intuitively clear to me which is the \\"nav\\" panel, the right or the left: they both seem to be doing the same things. : :Steve E. : :------ andy wrote on: 2004-07-15 11:05:57.------ ::This is the text announcing that a new document has been posted. Notice that this announcement appears in the comment reader (lower right pane) when the \\"item reference\\" for this comment is clicked in the discussion index (upper right pane). An item reference is an underlilned link to the item and, if applicable, the location within the item (i.e. a location within the text of a document), to which a comment is attached. It appears at the beginning of a comment header in the discussion index, and also within the comment reader header at the top of the comment reader pane.' , 1 , 103 , NOW() , 2 , 'todd' , 1 , 0 ) [nativecode=1064 ** You have an error in your SQL syntax near 's explanation' , 'Thanks for the feedback, Steve. Navigation is done in both the' at line 1] ---- end db error message. ---- Unlocked the table, now exiting	2004-09-24 11:43:00	17	5	3
New Document: ""Online Committee Room" Reqs"	todd	Interesting outline of requirements for an online committee room, by famed e-democracy advocate Steve Clift, definitely in the representative government model - but useful.	2004-09-27 11:41:28	0	83	0
Discussion Item: "Meeting time"	todd	We need to decide on a meeting time. Can you all post your (un)available times as a response here, and I'll propose a time that works for me?	2004-09-27 16:08:22	0	84	9
Andrew's and Alex's responses	todd	From email messages: Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:55:47 -0700 From: Alex Cochran gt; To: Todd Davies gt; Subject: Re: Working on Deme Hi Todd, Sounds good, but I think 8 hours will be more than I can manage. Last year it seemed I was averaging between 4 and 5, with a good bit of "cramming" at the end. Up to 8 hours is fine, but I think up to 5 or six is far more likely. I'm up for a meeting any time. Afternoons are best, though, as I have class mornings until 11. -Alex Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 16:19:46 -0700 From: Andrew Parker gt; To: Todd Davies gt; Subject: Re: Working on Deme Four hours per week sounds good. Regarding a meeting time: Tuesdays/Thursdays anytime (aside from 1 - 2:30) work best for me. ~Andrew ------ todd wrote on: 2004-09-27 16:08:22.------ :We need to decide on a meeting time. Can you all post your (un)available times as a response here, and I'll propose a time that works for me?	2004-09-27 16:23:47	182	84	7
meeting times	brendan	Since I'm a compulsive shopper, my available times are still a bit up in the air. Andrew suggested T, Th afternoons. I can do Th after 3:15. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-09-27 16:23:47.------ :From email messages: : :Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:55:47 -0700 :From: Alex Cochran gt; :To: Todd Davies gt; :Subject: Re: Working on Deme : :Hi Todd, : :Sounds good, but I think 8 hours will be more than I can manage. Last :year it seemed I was averaging between 4 and 5, with a good bit of :"cramming" at the end. Up to 8 hours is fine, but I think up to 5 or :six is far more likely. : :I'm up for a meeting any time. Afternoons are best, though, as I have :class mornings until 11. : :-Alex : :Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 16:19:46 -0700 :From: Andrew Parker gt; :To: Todd Davies gt; :Subject: Re: Working on Deme : :Four hours per week sounds good. Regarding a meeting time: :Tuesdays/Thursdays anytime (aside from 1 - 2:30) work best for me. : :~Andrew : : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-09-27 16:08:22.------ ::We need to decide on a meeting time. Can you all post your (un)available times as a response here, and I'll propose a time that works for me?	2004-09-28 00:08:32	183	84	6
Thursday at 3:30?	alex	Th after 3:15 is good for me. Should we say 3:30? ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-09-28 00:08:32.------ :Since I'm a compulsive shopper, my available times are still a bit up in the air. : :Andrew suggested T, Th afternoons. I can do Th after 3:15. : : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-09-27 16:23:47.------ ::From email messages: :: ::Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:55:47 -0700 ::From: Alex Cochran gt; ::To: Todd Davies gt; ::Subject: Re: Working on Deme :: ::Hi Todd, :: ::Sounds good, but I think 8 hours will be more than I can manage. Last ::year it seemed I was averaging between 4 and 5, with a good bit of ::"cramming" at the end. Up to 8 hours is fine, but I think up to 5 or ::six is far more likely. :: ::I'm up for a meeting any time. Afternoons are best, though, as I have ::class mornings until 11. :: ::-Alex :: ::Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 16:19:46 -0700 ::From: Andrew Parker gt; ::To: Todd Davies gt; ::Subject: Re: Working on Deme :: ::Four hours per week sounds good. Regarding a meeting time: ::Tuesdays/Thursdays anytime (aside from 1 - 2:30) work best for me. :: ::~Andrew :: :: ::------ todd wrote on: 2004-09-27 16:08:22.------ :::We need to decide on a meeting time. Can you all post your (un)available times as a response here, and I'll propose a time that works for me?	2004-09-28 08:08:59	184	84	5
Thursday at 8?	todd	Thursday afternoon is bad this week because I'll be helping with our welcoming party which starts at 4. Is everyone free Thursday evening at 8 (after the Presidential debate)? ------ alex wrote on: 2004-09-28 08:08:59.------ :Th after 3:15 is good for me. Should we say 3:30? : :------ brendan wrote on: 2004-09-28 00:08:32.------ ::Since I'm a compulsive shopper, my available times are still a bit up in the air. :: ::Andrew suggested T, Th afternoons. I can do Th after 3:15. :: :: ::------ todd wrote on: 2004-09-27 16:23:47.------ :::From email messages: ::: :::Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:55:47 -0700 :::From: Alex Cochran gt; :::To: Todd Davies gt; :::Subject: Re: Working on Deme ::: :::Hi Todd, ::: :::Sounds good, but I think 8 hours will be more than I can manage. Last :::year it seemed I was averaging between 4 and 5, with a good bit of :::"cramming" at the end. Up to 8 hours is fine, but I think up to 5 or :::six is far more likely. ::: :::I'm up for a meeting any time. Afternoons are best, though, as I have :::class mornings until 11. ::: :::-Alex ::: :::Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 16:19:46 -0700 :::From: Andrew Parker gt; :::To: Todd Davies gt; :::Subject: Re: Working on Deme ::: :::Four hours per week sounds good. Regarding a meeting time: :::Tuesdays/Thursdays anytime (aside from 1 - 2:30) work best for me. ::: :::~Andrew ::: ::: :::------ todd wrote on: 2004-09-27 16:08:22.------ ::::We need to decide on a meeting time. Can you all post your (un)available times as a response here, and I'll propose a time that works for me?	2004-09-28 11:16:13	185	84	4
Sounds fine	andrew	That sounds fine to me. ~Andrew ------ todd wrote on: 2004-09-28 11:16:13.------ :Thursday afternoon is bad this week because I'll be helping with our welcoming party which starts at 4. Is everyone free Thursday evening at 8 (after the Presidential debate)? : :------ alex wrote on: 2004-09-28 08:08:59.------ ::Th after 3:15 is good for me. Should we say 3:30? :: ::------ brendan wrote on: 2004-09-28 00:08:32.------ :::Since I'm a compulsive shopper, my available times are still a bit up in the air. ::: :::Andrew suggested T, Th afternoons. I can do Th after 3:15. ::: ::: :::------ todd wrote on: 2004-09-27 16:23:47.------ ::::From email messages: :::: ::::Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:55:47 -0700 ::::From: Alex Cochran gt; ::::To: Todd Davies gt; ::::Subject: Re: Working on Deme :::: ::::Hi Todd, :::: ::::Sounds good, but I think 8 hours will be more than I can manage. Last ::::year it seemed I was averaging between 4 and 5, with a good bit of ::::"cramming" at the end. Up to 8 hours is fine, but I think up to 5 or ::::six is far more likely. :::: ::::I'm up for a meeting any time. Afternoons are best, though, as I have ::::class mornings until 11. :::: ::::-Alex :::: ::::Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 16:19:46 -0700 ::::From: Andrew Parker gt; ::::To: Todd Davies gt; ::::Subject: Re: Working on Deme :::: ::::Four hours per week sounds good. Regarding a meeting time: ::::Tuesdays/Thursdays anytime (aside from 1 - 2:30) work best for me. :::: ::::~Andrew :::: :::: ::::------ todd wrote on: 2004-09-27 16:08:22.------ :::::We need to decide on a meeting time. Can you all post your (un)available times as a response here, and I'll propose a time that works for me?	2004-09-28 11:28:28	186	84	3
Fine for me too	alex	Looks good. -Alex ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-09-28 11:28:28.------ :That sounds fine to me. : :~Andrew : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-09-28 11:16:13.------ ::Thursday afternoon is bad this week because I'll be helping with our welcoming party which starts at 4. Is everyone free Thursday evening at 8 (after the Presidential debate)? :: ::------ alex wrote on: 2004-09-28 08:08:59.------ :::Th after 3:15 is good for me. Should we say 3:30? ::: :::------ brendan wrote on: 2004-09-28 00:08:32.------ ::::Since I'm a compulsive shopper, my available times are still a bit up in the air. :::: ::::Andrew suggested T, Th afternoons. I can do Th after 3:15. :::: :::: ::::------ todd wrote on: 2004-09-27 16:23:47.------ :::::From email messages: ::::: :::::Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:55:47 -0700 :::::From: Alex Cochran gt; :::::To: Todd Davies gt; :::::Subject: Re: Working on Deme ::::: :::::Hi Todd, ::::: :::::Sounds good, but I think 8 hours will be more than I can manage. Last :::::year it seemed I was averaging between 4 and 5, with a good bit of :::::"cramming" at the end. Up to 8 hours is fine, but I think up to 5 or :::::six is far more likely. ::::: :::::I'm up for a meeting any time. Afternoons are best, though, as I have :::::class mornings until 11. ::::: :::::-Alex ::::: :::::Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 16:19:46 -0700 :::::From: Andrew Parker gt; :::::To: Todd Davies gt; :::::Subject: Re: Working on Deme ::::: :::::Four hours per week sounds good. Regarding a meeting time: :::::Tuesdays/Thursdays anytime (aside from 1 - 2:30) work best for me. ::::: :::::~Andrew ::::: ::::: :::::------ todd wrote on: 2004-09-27 16:08:22.------ ::::::We need to decide on a meeting time. Can you all post your (un)available times as a response here, and I'll propose a time that works for me?	2004-09-28 13:00:18	187	84	0
me 3	brendan	8pm thurs it is then. brendan ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-09-28 11:28:28.------ :That sounds fine to me. : :~Andrew : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-09-28 11:16:13.------ ::Thursday afternoon is bad this week because I'll be helping with our welcoming party which starts at 4. Is everyone free Thursday evening at 8 (after the Presidential debate)? :: ::------ alex wrote on: 2004-09-28 08:08:59.------ :::Th after 3:15 is good for me. Should we say 3:30? ::: :::------ brendan wrote on: 2004-09-28 00:08:32.------ ::::Since I'm a compulsive shopper, my available times are still a bit up in the air. :::: ::::Andrew suggested T, Th afternoons. I can do Th after 3:15. :::: :::: ::::------ todd wrote on: 2004-09-27 16:23:47.------ :::::From email messages: ::::: :::::Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:55:47 -0700 :::::From: Alex Cochran gt; :::::To: Todd Davies gt; :::::Subject: Re: Working on Deme ::::: :::::Hi Todd, ::::: :::::Sounds good, but I think 8 hours will be more than I can manage. Last :::::year it seemed I was averaging between 4 and 5, with a good bit of :::::"cramming" at the end. Up to 8 hours is fine, but I think up to 5 or :::::six is far more likely. ::::: :::::I'm up for a meeting any time. Afternoons are best, though, as I have :::::class mornings until 11. ::::: :::::-Alex ::::: :::::Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 16:19:46 -0700 :::::From: Andrew Parker gt; :::::To: Todd Davies gt; :::::Subject: Re: Working on Deme ::::: :::::Four hours per week sounds good. Regarding a meeting time: :::::Tuesdays/Thursdays anytime (aside from 1 - 2:30) work best for me. ::::: :::::~Andrew ::::: ::::: :::::------ todd wrote on: 2004-09-27 16:08:22.------ ::::::We need to decide on a meeting time. Can you all post your (un)available times as a response here, and I'll propose a time that works for me?	2004-09-28 16:33:49	187	84	1
Thurs 8 pm - my office	todd	I'll assume you can all come to my office for the meeting - I'll leave the doors open for you on the lower level. If you get locked out, just pound on my window! ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-09-28 16:33:49.------ :8pm thurs it is then. : :brendan : :------ andrew wrote on: 2004-09-28 11:28:28.------ ::That sounds fine to me. :: ::~Andrew :: ::------ todd wrote on: 2004-09-28 11:16:13.------ :::Thursday afternoon is bad this week because I'll be helping with our welcoming party which starts at 4. Is everyone free Thursday evening at 8 (after the Presidential debate)? ::: :::------ alex wrote on: 2004-09-28 08:08:59.------ ::::Th after 3:15 is good for me. Should we say 3:30? :::: ::::------ brendan wrote on: 2004-09-28 00:08:32.------ :::::Since I'm a compulsive shopper, my available times are still a bit up in the air. ::::: :::::Andrew suggested T, Th afternoons. I can do Th after 3:15. ::::: ::::: :::::------ todd wrote on: 2004-09-27 16:23:47.------ ::::::From email messages: :::::: ::::::Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:55:47 -0700 ::::::From: Alex Cochran gt; ::::::To: Todd Davies gt; ::::::Subject: Re: Working on Deme :::::: ::::::Hi Todd, :::::: ::::::Sounds good, but I think 8 hours will be more than I can manage. Last ::::::year it seemed I was averaging between 4 and 5, with a good bit of ::::::"cramming" at the end. Up to 8 hours is fine, but I think up to 5 or ::::::six is far more likely. :::::: ::::::I'm up for a meeting any time. Afternoons are best, though, as I have ::::::class mornings until 11. :::::: ::::::-Alex :::::: ::::::Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 16:19:46 -0700 ::::::From: Andrew Parker gt; ::::::To: Todd Davies gt; ::::::Subject: Re: Working on Deme :::::: ::::::Four hours per week sounds good. Regarding a meeting time: ::::::Tuesdays/Thursdays anytime (aside from 1 - 2:30) work best for me. :::::: ::::::~Andrew :::::: :::::: ::::::------ todd wrote on: 2004-09-27 16:08:22.------ :::::::We need to decide on a meeting time. Can you all post your (un)available times as a response here, and I'll propose a time that works for me?	2004-09-28 16:48:41	189	84	0
I may be a bit late	alex	I have a class from seven to eight, but I'll be there asap. -Alex	2004-09-30 16:01:31	182	84	0
Task: "Tasklist should persist view"	brendan	The little options on the task list view for a project, like "Display Finished Items", should persist their state per user when you leave the project view then return later. If I'm viewing without finished items, I probably still want to be viewing without finished items when I come back to the project view.	2004-10-01 00:00:06	17	5	2
New Document: "email integration design draft"	brendan	a first stab at designing the email integration, and outlining some of the issues. Y'all don't need to read this right away right now.	2004-10-01 03:00:51	0	86	2
cut off?	andrew	Did Deme cut off the end of your document prematurally? the last word I see is "and" and it's in the middle of an unended sentence. ~Andrew ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-01 03:00:51.------ :a first stab at designing the email integration, and outlining some of the issues. Y'all don't need to read this right away right now.	2004-10-01 11:17:05	193	86	1
My vote	andrew	My vote goes to this naming scheme out of all the various options. We can restrict meeting area titles and group names to not include period punctionation, so things should get too complicated. The subdomain for the groupname idea would be more aesthetic, but I have difficulty imagining how such a system would scale: You would probably have to have some sort of insertion into a config script to set up a virtual server for every group created on Deme. Considering how easy it is to create new groups, this could get out of hand. I think my initial pessemism regarding using subdomains is under-researched, and reading up on this subject is something I could be doing during the coming week. Anyway, if using subdomains turns out to be unrealistic, The meeting-area.group-name@groupspace.org format I placed my inline comment on is my favorite. ~Andrew	2004-10-01 11:24:58	0	87	0
Is this possible...	andrew	Are we allowed to add our own headers to e-mails? If we can add headers to HTTP requests, in theory, it should be just as simple to add headers to e-mails. Then we could do this hash-respond code idea by looking at the headers of the message the user is responding to and looking for the hashcode we placed there. This idea is relies on two assumptions: 1. We can add our own headers in the first place. 2. All original headers are returned in e-mail responses... now that I think about it, I don't think this is the case.	2004-10-01 11:29:26	0	88	1
think about listserv	andrew	We have to remember that the ideal functionality for e-mail integration is to mimic what everyone already knows: listserv. When using listserv, people don't have to remember multiple addresses: there is only 1... mygroup@lists.domain.com If the user wants to be a part of a thread, he or she will reply to mygroup@lists.domain.com to a message he or she received on the list. If the user wants to make her own new thread, he or she can do two things: 1. click reply-all to a message the user received on a list, remove all the addresses except the list address from the TO and CC headers, then delete all prior content in the e-mail and compose a new message with a new subject line. 2. Simply open a new e-mail, add mygroup@lists.domain.com to the recepients list, and compose away. Whatever scheme we come up with to do basic posting to lists (not to mention threading) needs to respond in a sensible way to these two cases. So, sending a post to meeting-area.group-name@groupspace.org should have a sensible default action (such as posting a general comment, or a new document if there is an attachment in the e-mail). Also, any scheme used to do threading needs to handle case #1 I listed above. Many people compose new messages to lists in this fashion, so my earlier post regarding messing with the e-mail headers would break down in this case because a new post would be confused with a reply to a post. ~Andrew	2004-10-01 11:39:42	0	89	3
not cut off	brendan	I was just really really tired by the time i posted it.	2004-10-01 11:45:45	194	86	0
yes and no	brendan	:1. We can add our own headers in the first place. Yes we can do that :2. All original headers are returned in e-mail responses... now that I think about it, I don't think this is the case. No. The only headers i know of that are affected on the response are In-Reply-To and maybe References. ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-01 11:29:26.------ :Are we allowed to add our own headers to e-mails? If we can add headers to HTTP requests, in theory, it should be just as simple to add headers to e-mails. Then we could do this hash-respond code idea by looking at the headers of the message the user is responding to and looking for the hashcode we placed there. This idea is relies on two assumptions: :1. We can add our own headers in the first place. :2. All original headers are returned in e-mail responses... now that I think about it, I don't think this is the case.	2004-10-01 11:47:29	196	88	0
I like this scheme	todd	Seems the most natural. It's increasingly common for groups to have their own subdomains on a site. Microsoft Sharepoint actually has you specify the group name as a subdomain, i.e. Choose a name for your group: .sharepointsite.com Restrictions on names are good as long as they are not too extreme. One issue while we are at Stanford is whether we can map subdomains of Groupspace.org seamlessly onto the Piece server.	2004-10-01 11:50:28	0	90	0
inferring threadedness	brendan	andrew wrote: :1. click reply-all to a message the user received on a list, remove all the addresses except the list address from the TO and CC headers, then delete all prior content in the e-mail and compose a new message with a new subject line. Shoot, I forgot about this use case. This is a big problem: the email client will add a hidden In-Reply-To that looks like it's responding to the original message, which is clearly wrong. We could try to infer things from... * subject -- is it the same, modulo a "Re:" ? * statistical similarity of text -- we could search for quoted text coming from the previous email. if nothing is quoted, we assume the message is completely new. Since threading is so iffy, I think we need to have a flatter viewing model for the comment index -- like make a prominent most-recently-posted view that's selected by default, or something. I feel like in many cases our threading algorithm will just drop the ball. Empirical evidence: mailing list viewers that turn a mailing list archive into a threaded web archive, and try to do deep nested threading like us. Two examples I can think of: MHonArc and mailman. I went randomly to one MHonArc generated page: http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2004/10/threads.html and found already a possible screwup near the bottom there. The algorithm inside Mailman might be slightly better. This page looks decent: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2004-September/thread.html . I think it's refusing to do more than 3 depth or so. Quicktopic, phpBB, and other flat-subject modelled systems have it easy: messages are only appended on the end of a big flat subject. You can have a separate email address per big flat subject, and never have to worry about In-Reply-To or subject line matchups. (vBulletin is in this category too)	2004-10-01 12:03:51	197	89	2
Task: "Preserving session states on reload"	todd	Currently, at least in Moz 1.4.1/Linux, reloading the meeting area loses things like the sorting mode in the comments index. Variables like this should have their state preserved until the user specifies otherwise. See also task 4.ao (http://www.groupspace.org/base2/groups/Deme_013_Deve/marea/?marea_id=1&obj_id=41&obj_type=task).	2004-10-01 12:04:41	17	5	1
Discussion with Eric Leland	todd	I haven't read and digested this section, but threading seems like the key problem to solve. In my discussion with nonprofit tech consultant Eric Leland (eric@lelanddesign.com) at the Bay Area Community Technology Network conference in May, he told me about some work that had been done on this by a PHP programmer in hungary, the info about which he said he could dig up for me if he got time. He never got back to me and I never bugged him about it, but it might be worth doing so. My notes say: "Messages had key-values [a header feature?] that included codes for forum, thread, and message. Issue was addressed in a special discussion on vbulletin.org or .com - not sure which [they are different sites]." The other notes from that day are worth posting. I'll transcribe them and put them up as a doc when I get time - bug me if I don't. ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-01 12:03:51.------ :andrew wrote: ::1. click reply-all to a message the user received on a list, remove all the addresses except the list address from the TO and CC headers, then delete all prior content in the e-mail and compose a new message with a new subject line. : :Shoot, I forgot about this use case. This is a big problem: the email client will add a hidden In-Reply-To that looks like it's responding to the original message, which is clearly wrong. We could try to infer things from... : :* subject -- is it the same, modulo a "Re:" ? :* statistical similarity of text -- we could search for quoted text coming from the previous email. if nothing is quoted, we assume the message is completely new. : : :Since threading is so iffy, I think we need to have a flatter viewing model for the comment index -- like make a prominent most-recently-posted view that's selected by default, or something. : :I feel like in many cases our threading algorithm will just drop the ball. Empirical evidence: mailing list viewers that turn a mailing list archive into a threaded web archive, and try to do deep nested threading like us. Two examples I can think of: MHonArc and mailman. : :I went randomly to one MHonArc generated page: http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2004/10/threads.html and found already a possible screwup near the bottom there. : :The algorithm inside Mailman might be slightly better. This page looks decent: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2004-September/thread.html . I think it's refusing to do more than 3 depth or so. : :Quicktopic, phpBB, and other flat-subject modelled systems have it easy: messages are only appended on the end of a big flat subject. You can have a separate email address per big flat subject, and never have to worry about In-Reply-To or subject line matchups. (vBulletin is in this category too)	2004-10-01 12:16:38	201	89	1
Related task	todd	This is related to 4.ao - Session Variables (http://www.groupspace.org/base2/groups/Deme_013_Deve/marea/?marea_id=1&obj_id=41&obj_type=task) ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-01 00:00:06.------ :The little options on the task list view for a project, like "Display Finished Items", should persist their state per user when you leave the project view then return later. If I'm viewing without finished items, I probably still want to be viewing without finished items when I come back to the project view.	2004-10-01 13:44:16	192	5	0
Link: "MessyBoard"	todd	Interesting applet-based bulletin board with real-time updating, scheduled for refereed demo at the User Interface Software and Technology conference.	2004-10-01 14:49:56	0	92	0
New Document: "Goals"	todd	Here's the list from my whiteboard last night - feel free to comment/revise/add more. I've added a few things.	2004-10-01 15:16:38	0	93	0
Task: "Space rendering in text documents"	todd	Translation of user-entered document text into HTML should preserve spacing as much as possible, so user can format/indent.	2004-10-01 15:26:28	17	5	0
Update: "Preserving session states on reload"	todd	Updated on October 1st, 2004, 15:27 by todd -Description changed from 'Currently, at least in Moz 1.4.1/Linux, reloading the meeting area loses things like the sorting mode in the comments index. Variables like this should have their state preserved until the user specifies otherwise. See also task 4.ao (http://www.groupspace.org/base2/groups/Deme_013_Deve/marea/?marea_id=1&obj_id=41&obj_type=task).' to 'Currently, at least in Moz 1.4.1/Linux, reloading the meeting area loses things like the sorting mode in the comments index, currently displayed item, etc. Variables like this should have their state preserved until the user specifies otherwise. See also task 4.ao (http://www.groupspace.org/base2/groups/Deme_013_Deve/marea/?marea_id=1&obj_id=41&obj_type=task).'	2004-10-01 15:27:56	202	5	0
Should become a document (nm)	todd		2004-10-02 00:25:29	0	95	0
Right, and..	todd	a related issue is that we may eventually institute something like "dialogue areas" in the future. These would not be structured around a list of items, but would rather be more like standard message boards. They would look like meeting areas in some ways and could have attachments, but for example the standard view would give prominence to the comments rather than to items. Anyway, for these it would be better to have email addresses of the form dialogue-name@groupname.grouspace.org.	2004-10-02 00:33:17	0	96	0
Re: Discussion with Eric Leland	todd	Brendan, if any of this intrigues you (about the hungarian (?) programmer especially), feel free to write to Eric and introduce yourself (cc-ing the Deme Team and mentioning my discussion with him in May), or I can do it if you'd rather. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-01 12:16:38.------ :I haven't read and digested this section, but threading seems like the key problem to solve. In my discussion with nonprofit tech consultant Eric Leland (eric@lelanddesign.com) at the Bay Area Community Technology Network conference in May, he told me about some work that had been done on this by a PHP programmer in hungary, the info about which he said he could dig up for me if he got time. He never got back to me and I never bugged him about it, but it might be worth doing so. My notes say: "Messages had key-values [a header feature?] that included codes for forum, thread, and message. Issue was addressed in a special discussion on vbulletin.org or .com - not sure which [they are different sites]." The other notes from that day are worth posting. I'll transcribe them and put them up as a doc when I get time - bug me if I don't. : :------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-01 12:03:51.------ ::andrew wrote: :::1. click reply-all to a message the user received on a list, remove all the addresses except the list address from the TO and CC headers, then delete all prior content in the e-mail and compose a new message with a new subject line. :: ::Shoot, I forgot about this use case. This is a big problem: the email client will add a hidden In-Reply-To that looks like it's responding to the original message, which is clearly wrong. We could try to infer things from... :: ::* subject -- is it the same, modulo a "Re:" ? ::* statistical similarity of text -- we could search for quoted text coming from the previous email. if nothing is quoted, we assume the message is completely new. :: :: ::Since threading is so iffy, I think we need to have a flatter viewing model for the comment index -- like make a prominent most-recently-posted view that's selected by default, or something. :: ::I feel like in many cases our threading algorithm will just drop the ball. Empirical evidence: mailing list viewers that turn a mailing list archive into a threaded web archive, and try to do deep nested threading like us. Two examples I can think of: MHonArc and mailman. :: ::I went randomly to one MHonArc generated page: http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2004/10/threads.html and found already a possible screwup near the bottom there. :: ::The algorithm inside Mailman might be slightly better. This page looks decent: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2004-September/thread.html . I think it's refusing to do more than 3 depth or so. :: ::Quicktopic, phpBB, and other flat-subject modelled systems have it easy: messages are only appended on the end of a big flat subject. You can have a separate email address per big flat subject, and never have to worry about In-Reply-To or subject line matchups. (vBulletin is in this category too)	2004-10-02 07:55:20	203	89	0
New Document: "CTN Bay Area Conference"	todd	These are my notes from the Community Technology Network of the Bay Area (www.ctnbayarea.org) conference on May 21 in sf.	2004-10-02 09:02:39	0	97	0
Should be *Groundspring.org* (nm)	todd		2004-10-02 11:00:53	0	98	0
interesting	brendan	I remember looking into phpGroupWare way back at the start of POD, and it was kinda crappy back then. But now it seems huge -- one of the top most active projects on sourceforge. Maybe it's time for us to look into integration with them again?	2004-10-02 12:20:10	0	99	1
Re: interesting	todd	Hmmm, they don't seem to be emphasizing forums. Looks like some nice modules - I wonder how pluggable they are. Cute icons but a little tough to figure out. I like that they have a diverse set of sponsors, including a labor group. Could be a model for us. ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-02 12:20:10.------ :I remember looking into phpGroupWare way back at the start of POD, and it was kinda crappy back then. But now it seems huge -- one of the top most active projects on sourceforge. Maybe it's time for us to look into integration with them again?	2004-10-02 16:53:34	214	99	0
Task: "Remember Bulk Subscribe Message"	todd	When group owner composes a message to send to those on a bulk subscribe list, Deme should remember the text of the message and insert it into the compose box the next time bulk subscribe is selected for that group, as the default outgoing message. We should write a generic default outgoing message as well, which, for example, would point people to the tutorial group so they can learn Deme.	2004-10-05 00:14:45	17	5	0
Task: "No preface in task display"	todd	When an individual task within a project is loaded into the item display, we don't need to show the preface for the whole project. The example project in "Learn Deme Here" meeting area is an example - a long project premise gets in the way of reading the task.	2004-10-05 00:17:00	17	5	2
Link: "Webdialogues.net example"	todd	One of the best online dialogue sites I've seen (software site is www.webdialogues.net). I find the tabs design intuitive and usable - good example of how a single-pane version of Deme might work for new/infrequent users.	2004-10-05 11:53:56	0	102	0
Task: "handler architecture"	brendan	This is an internals change: we need to abolish the symlinked code system of new group creation. This was an old, shortsighted design decision. With a restructuring of the meta and per-group directories, things will get cleaner fast. All code should be in only one directory. We should not rely on php's system of "filesystem dir = url". Instead, every url of form "/base2/groups/TheGroupName/bla.php" should be handled by a script (via apache's SetHandler directive) that chdir()'s and passes control to the correct php script via require(). Note that to download files, something similar occurs; groupname/files This hander code is also responsible to set global varialbes for the current groupname (or to specify, no group), and to open database connections (to the correct group database). This handler code is also an ideal place to add a handling system for a new naming scheme as has been elsewhere discussed, such as "http://our-group.groupspace.org". If we wanted a different naming scheme like that, we'd need to implement this sort of handling system anyway. All data should be in a separate subdir. Each group should still have its own data subdir, but the data subdirs should not be embedded inside code dirs (as it is now). This switch will be MUCH more secure. We should have our data dirs competely outside the webroot (/var/www/html) anyway. Other benefits include, less reliance on unix-level file manipulation (the {add,rm}group.sh scripts). We'll soon finally, using SetHandler could clean up (eliminate!) the files/ subhierarchy as well. Potential disadvantages. Installation might be a bit trickier. We're already demanding .htaccess's to be enabled, so it won't be too bad.	2004-10-05 20:19:18	17	5	0
example of need	brendan	people just love "reply all"! i just found on piece's local mail: Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 07:40:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Wasow gt; To: Deme Notifier gt; Subject: Re: [AF Internal] New discussion item "Majors Night at Toyon" by todd Oops! I meant to send this to Alessa, not to the Deme Notifier. Sorry. Tom On Fri, 1 Oct 2004, Tom Wasow wrote: > Thanks, Alessa. One or two of the Symbolic Systems Advising Fellows > (advanced students in the program who help run it) will attend. Brendan > O'Connor plans to be there, and Mahesh Srinivasan may go as well. > > Tom > >	2004-10-05 20:21:17	0	104	1
Yup, another argument for email posting (nm)	todd	------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-05 20:21:17.------ :people just love "reply all"! i just found on piece's local mail: : :Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 07:40:50 -0700 (PDT) :From: Tom Wasow gt; :To: Deme Notifier gt; :Subject: Re: [AF Internal] New discussion item "Majors Night at Toyon" by : todd : :Oops! I meant to send this to Alessa, not to the Deme Notifier. : :Sorry. : :Tom : : :On Fri, 1 Oct 2004, Tom Wasow wrote: : :> Thanks, Alessa. One or two of the Symbolic Systems Advising Fellows :> (advanced students in the program who help run it) will attend. Brendan :> O'Connor plans to be there, and Mahesh Srinivasan may go as well. :> :> Tom :> :> :	2004-10-05 20:27:43	220	104	0
New Document: "Notes on KPFA presentation"	todd	Brief report on my presentation last night before the KPFA Labor Programming Collective.	2004-10-05 20:51:08	0	105	0
@groupspace.org email!	brendan	as part of learning/testing the email system, i'm happy to report that now we all have [piece login]@groupspace.org email addresses. You can check your mail by running pine on piece, or alternatively setting up a .forward file to your normal mail account. (andrew and alex, of course note that your piece account probably has lots of system mail going into it as specified by /etc/aliases .)	2004-10-05 21:41:12	0	0	1
Hmmmm	todd	Cool but... when I run Pine on Piece, it can't access my Inbox. ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-05 21:41:12.------ :as part of learning/testing the email system, i'm happy to report that now we all have [piece login]@groupspace.org email addresses. You can check your mail by running pine on piece, or alternatively setting up a .forward file to your normal mail account. (andrew and alex, of course note that your piece account probably has lots of system mail going into it as specified by /etc/aliases .)	2004-10-05 22:50:56	223	0	0
New Document: "10/7 meeting agenda"	brendan	so this is late but here's at least part of what we should talk about today	2004-10-07 09:48:15	0	106	2
Meeting today	alex	My professor just announced a section for today so I can't make the meeting. I don't know how permanant it will be, but I'll post my final schedule soon.	2004-10-07 10:20:14	225	106	1
Task: "Name of group in meeting area"	todd	The name of the group should be visible somewhere, i.e. in the top banner, within each meeting area for that group in the standard view.	2004-10-07 10:27:38	17	5	0
Re: Meeting today	todd	Ack!! Let's go ahead and meet so we can talk about email integration. Alex, let us know your final schedule and we can set a time starting next week that everyone can make. ------ alex wrote on: 2004-10-07 10:20:14.------ : :My professor just announced a section for today so I can't make the meeting. I don't know how permanant it will be, but I'll post my final schedule soon.	2004-10-07 10:31:11	226	106	0
Quick thoughts	todd	Based on our discussion today, I'm persuaded that coding threads in the email address for replies by email could work, especially if it had a word like "reply" in the address, and if the email address for posting fresh threads was just the meeting area name @ group name. I remain a strong proponent of subdomains for the group name, assuming that wouldn't make Deme too hard to install.	2004-10-07 18:55:16	0	108	2
On attachments	todd	I was left thinking we had agreed to make attachments appear as links within the view of a comment in comment reader, with behavior determined by the browser. Andrew and Brendan, do you agree? Might be good not to target the comment reader frame itself for loading an attachment, though.	2004-10-07 19:03:03	0	109	4
sounds good	brendan	agreed. I think they could be marked as "emailed attachments" so people don't wonder why they can't make their own attachments on the web posting interface. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-07 19:03:03.------ :I was left thinking we had agreed to make attachments appear as links within the view of a comment in comment reader, with behavior determined by the browser. Andrew and Brendan, do you agree? Might be good not to target the comment reader frame itself for loading an attachment, though.	2004-10-07 19:05:08	230	109	3
subdomains	brendan	as for subdomains in the email address, of course remember that installations that don't have their own domain name won't be able to run it. For the installations that do want it, it's going to be pretty site-dependent how it's set up. We should try to make adapter between incoming emails and the actual posting operations as flexible as possible to allow for different format schemes for mailing list addresses. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-07 18:55:16.------ :Based on our discussion today, I'm persuaded that coding threads in the email address for replies by email could work, especially if it had a word like "reply" in the address, and if the email address for posting fresh threads was just the meeting area name @ group name. I remain a strong proponent of subdomains for the group name, assuming that wouldn't make Deme too hard to install.	2004-10-07 19:12:43	229	108	1
ISIS meeting	brendan	I completely forgot to mention this during out meeting today. isis.stanford.edu is a student group that spends probably too much money creating admittedly nifty information technology things for campus. They made events.stanford.edu, and also were behind those (silly) plasma screens advertising campus events. Anyway, I recently ran into a friend of mine with them; now they're starting this big project to make a yahoo-groups-like system for dorms and groups campuswide. mailing lists, photo galleries, blogs, etc. Anyway, I got myself agreed in to giving a talk on Deme to them on next Tues, 10/12 9pm at wallenberg 127. Though of course I'm warning it's definitely alpha-stage software. My friend had already heard about us through Leo Ortolano (Haas director, where we get funding!) I don't know how useful Deme would be to them at this point, though hopefully they'll have useful things to say. And connecting up with more software-oriented students seems like a good thing to do. Potential contributors and such. any thoughts, folks?	2004-10-07 19:26:53	0	0	7
Email versus web posting of attachments	todd	Actually, I don't think we should release a version in which you can post attachments by email but not in the web version - that actually favors email posting. ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-07 19:05:08.------ :agreed. I think they could be marked as "emailed attachments" so people don't wonder why they can't make their own attachments on the web posting interface. : : : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-07 19:03:03.------ ::I was left thinking we had agreed to make attachments appear as links within the view of a comment in comment reader, with behavior determined by the browser. Andrew and Brendan, do you agree? Might be good not to target the comment reader frame itself for loading an attachment, though.	2004-10-07 20:33:30	231	109	2
Good points (nm)	todd	------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-07 19:12:43.------ :as for subdomains in the email address, of course remember that installations that don't have their own domain name won't be able to run it. For the installations that do want it, it's going to be pretty site-dependent how it's set up. We should try to make adapter between incoming emails and the actual posting operations as flexible as possible to allow for different format schemes for mailing list addresses. : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-07 18:55:16.------ ::Based on our discussion today, I'm persuaded that coding threads in the email address for replies by email could work, especially if it had a word like "reply" in the address, and if the email address for posting fresh threads was just the meeting area name @ group name. I remain a strong proponent of subdomains for the group name, assuming that wouldn't make Deme too hard to install.	2004-10-07 20:34:15	232	108	0
Re: ISIS meeting	todd	Well, I think they should just work with our code, frankly, though I'm obviously biased. I'd certainly be willing to work with them. If they don't want to, I'd be interested in what they don't like about Deme. Are they funded by the university? If this is a student project, don't you think they'll find that a general groupware project is a lot to manage from scratch? - as we have, of course, but we've been at it for a year and a half. I see Dylan Arena is one of their tech folks, an SSP 2001 grad who was an AF. He's the guy who emailed ssp-af last fall about how great open source is and that he'd like to work with us to spread awareness of it. Maybe it's time to talk to him about Deme. ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-07 19:26:53.------ :I completely forgot to mention this during out meeting today. isis.stanford.edu is a student group that spends probably too much money creating admittedly nifty information technology things for campus. They made events.stanford.edu, and also were behind those (silly) plasma screens advertising campus events. Anyway, I recently ran into a friend of mine with them; now they're starting this big project to make a yahoo-groups-like system for dorms and groups campuswide. mailing lists, photo galleries, blogs, etc. : :Anyway, I got myself agreed in to giving a talk on Deme to them on next Tues, 10/12 9pm at wallenberg 127. Though of course I'm warning it's definitely alpha-stage software. My friend had already heard about us through Leo Ortolano (Haas director, where we get funding!) I don't know how useful Deme would be to them at this point, though hopefully they'll have useful things to say. And connecting up with more software-oriented students seems like a good thing to do. Potential contributors and such. : :any thoughts, folks?	2004-10-07 20:45:42	233	0	6
A side note	todd	Last spring there were discussions in the Faculty Senate led by Eric Roberts about revisiting Stanford's strategy for internal software. In the late 90s (under Condi Rice as provost, as it happens) the university adopted a "Buy Don't Build" policy, which led to the disasters with PeopleSoft and Oracle over the last few years - rigid software that doesn't fit with the Stanford culture and has been very difficult to get to work properly. Eric suggested more of an open-source model, building software in conjunction with other universities, taking advantage of the large reservoir of programming talent on campus which companies don't have (and which leads them to outsource). I'm not sure where that's gone, but I think a lot of people were persuaded. I'll post Eric's document. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-07 20:45:42.------ :Well, I think they should just work with our code, frankly, though I'm obviously biased. I'd certainly be willing to work with them. If they don't want to, I'd be interested in what they don't like about Deme. Are they funded by the university? If this is a student project, don't you think they'll find that a general groupware project is a lot to manage from scratch? - as we have, of course, but we've been at it for a year and a half. I see Dylan Arena is one of their tech folks, an SSP 2001 grad who was an AF. He's the guy who emailed ssp-af last fall about how great open source is and that he'd like to work with us to spread awareness of it. Maybe it's time to talk to him about Deme. : :------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-07 19:26:53.------ ::I completely forgot to mention this during out meeting today. isis.stanford.edu is a student group that spends probably too much money creating admittedly nifty information technology things for campus. They made events.stanford.edu, and also were behind those (silly) plasma screens advertising campus events. Anyway, I recently ran into a friend of mine with them; now they're starting this big project to make a yahoo-groups-like system for dorms and groups campuswide. mailing lists, photo galleries, blogs, etc. :: ::Anyway, I got myself agreed in to giving a talk on Deme to them on next Tues, 10/12 9pm at wallenberg 127. Though of course I'm warning it's definitely alpha-stage software. My friend had already heard about us through Leo Ortolano (Haas director, where we get funding!) I don't know how useful Deme would be to them at this point, though hopefully they'll have useful things to say. And connecting up with more software-oriented students seems like a good thing to do. Potential contributors and such. :: ::any thoughts, folks?	2004-10-07 20:56:28	236	0	1
oops, I don't have Eric's doc in e-form	todd	I'll see if Tom has it. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-07 20:56:28.------ :Last spring there were discussions in the Faculty Senate led by Eric Roberts about revisiting Stanford's strategy for internal software. In the late 90s (under Condi Rice as provost, as it happens) the university adopted a "Buy Don't Build" policy, which led to the disasters with PeopleSoft and Oracle over the last few years - rigid software that doesn't fit with the Stanford culture and has been very difficult to get to work properly. Eric suggested more of an open-source model, building software in conjunction with other universities, taking advantage of the large reservoir of programming talent on campus which companies don't have (and which leads them to outsource). I'm not sure where that's gone, but I think a lot of people were persuaded. I'll post Eric's document. : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-07 20:45:42.------ ::Well, I think they should just work with our code, frankly, though I'm obviously biased. I'd certainly be willing to work with them. If they don't want to, I'd be interested in what they don't like about Deme. Are they funded by the university? If this is a student project, don't you think they'll find that a general groupware project is a lot to manage from scratch? - as we have, of course, but we've been at it for a year and a half. I see Dylan Arena is one of their tech folks, an SSP 2001 grad who was an AF. He's the guy who emailed ssp-af last fall about how great open source is and that he'd like to work with us to spread awareness of it. Maybe it's time to talk to him about Deme. :: ::------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-07 19:26:53.------ :::I completely forgot to mention this during out meeting today. isis.stanford.edu is a student group that spends probably too much money creating admittedly nifty information technology things for campus. They made events.stanford.edu, and also were behind those (silly) plasma screens advertising campus events. Anyway, I recently ran into a friend of mine with them; now they're starting this big project to make a yahoo-groups-like system for dorms and groups campuswide. mailing lists, photo galleries, blogs, etc. ::: :::Anyway, I got myself agreed in to giving a talk on Deme to them on next Tues, 10/12 9pm at wallenberg 127. Though of course I'm warning it's definitely alpha-stage software. My friend had already heard about us through Leo Ortolano (Haas director, where we get funding!) I don't know how useful Deme would be to them at this point, though hopefully they'll have useful things to say. And connecting up with more software-oriented students seems like a good thing to do. Potential contributors and such. ::: :::any thoughts, folks?	2004-10-07 20:58:18	237	0	0
isis	brendan	i get the impression they're very well connected. they had external funding for those fancy screens at least. I don't know about university funding. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-07 20:45:42.------ :Well, I think they should just work with our code, frankly, though I'm obviously biased. I'd certainly be willing to work with them. If they don't want to, I'd be interested in what they don't like about Deme. Are they funded by the university? If this is a student project, don't you think they'll find that a general groupware project is a lot to manage from scratch? - as we have, of course, but we've been at it for a year and a half. I see Dylan Arena is one of their tech folks, an SSP 2001 grad who was an AF. He's the guy who emailed ssp-af last fall about how great open source is and that he'd like to work with us to spread awareness of it. Maybe it's time to talk to him about Deme. : :------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-07 19:26:53.------ ::I completely forgot to mention this during out meeting today. isis.stanford.edu is a student group that spends probably too much money creating admittedly nifty information technology things for campus. They made events.stanford.edu, and also were behind those (silly) plasma screens advertising campus events. Anyway, I recently ran into a friend of mine with them; now they're starting this big project to make a yahoo-groups-like system for dorms and groups campuswide. mailing lists, photo galleries, blogs, etc. :: ::Anyway, I got myself agreed in to giving a talk on Deme to them on next Tues, 10/12 9pm at wallenberg 127. Though of course I'm warning it's definitely alpha-stage software. My friend had already heard about us through Leo Ortolano (Haas director, where we get funding!) I don't know how useful Deme would be to them at this point, though hopefully they'll have useful things to say. And connecting up with more software-oriented students seems like a good thing to do. Potential contributors and such. :: ::any thoughts, folks?	2004-10-07 22:26:02	236	0	3
Re: isis	todd	Is the funding based on the possibility of licensing the software, do you think? ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-07 22:26:02.------ :i get the impression they're very well connected. they had external funding for those fancy screens at least. I don't know about university funding. : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-07 20:45:42.------ ::Well, I think they should just work with our code, frankly, though I'm obviously biased. I'd certainly be willing to work with them. If they don't want to, I'd be interested in what they don't like about Deme. Are they funded by the university? If this is a student project, don't you think they'll find that a general groupware project is a lot to manage from scratch? - as we have, of course, but we've been at it for a year and a half. I see Dylan Arena is one of their tech folks, an SSP 2001 grad who was an AF. He's the guy who emailed ssp-af last fall about how great open source is and that he'd like to work with us to spread awareness of it. Maybe it's time to talk to him about Deme. :: ::------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-07 19:26:53.------ :::I completely forgot to mention this during out meeting today. isis.stanford.edu is a student group that spends probably too much money creating admittedly nifty information technology things for campus. They made events.stanford.edu, and also were behind those (silly) plasma screens advertising campus events. Anyway, I recently ran into a friend of mine with them; now they're starting this big project to make a yahoo-groups-like system for dorms and groups campuswide. mailing lists, photo galleries, blogs, etc. ::: :::Anyway, I got myself agreed in to giving a talk on Deme to them on next Tues, 10/12 9pm at wallenberg 127. Though of course I'm warning it's definitely alpha-stage software. My friend had already heard about us through Leo Ortolano (Haas director, where we get funding!) I don't know how useful Deme would be to them at this point, though hopefully they'll have useful things to say. And connecting up with more software-oriented students seems like a good thing to do. Potential contributors and such. ::: :::any thoughts, folks?	2004-10-07 22:49:01	239	0	2
doesn't favor e-mail	andrew	I think having a non-intrusive link that says "emailed attachments" is a great solution for another reason, if the attachment is garbage like someone's Outlook stationary or some 50-byte "reply requested" junk then it won't be automatically loaded when the comment is viewed. Users can determine based on e-mail content and the attachment filename whether or not an attachment is worth viewing. I don't think that an "emailed attachments" link would favor e-mail posting, because it requires extra clicks to view this type of attachment. It's difficult to imagine a user that would rather people go through extra work to view the document he or she is trying to post. Plus, it's still more convienent to post a binary (or plain text) document as a "document item type." This is now reminding me of another usage case that I think we need to handle. When a user posts a new message to the list via e-mail with an attachment(s), we (read: Deme) need to make sure to e-mail along the attachment(s) with the autogenerated post e-mail... am I making sense? Attachments can travel via listserv to other e-mail users. We need to be able to support this ability too. ~Andrew ------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-07 20:33:30.------ :Actually, I don't think we should release a version in which you can post attachments by email but not in the web version - that actually favors email posting. : :------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-07 19:05:08.------ ::agreed. I think they could be marked as "emailed attachments" so people don't wonder why they can't make their own attachments on the web posting interface. :: :: :: ::------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-07 19:03:03.------ :::I was left thinking we had agreed to make attachments appear as links within the view of a comment in comment reader, with behavior determined by the browser. Andrew and Brendan, do you agree? Might be good not to target the comment reader frame itself for loading an attachment, though.	2004-10-08 11:35:49	234	109	1
special fees	andrew	I know that they have some university funding because they requested ASSU special fees. I know that because I remember voting against them. In general, I've regarded ISIS as a directionless money pit. I don't know any peers who have used either the events calendar or the plasma panel ads. That's not to say that their development on Deme code wouldn't be extremely useful. It would be great to get more input on our code; and the student body in general definitely falls under our target audience as they are a currently existing group in the real world that never has time to meet synchronously. I am a member of a couple of yahoo groups that are real campus groups, but that's only the case when majordomo won't host us, or when we don't want majordomo hosting us (in theory, all Stanford lists are monitored). ~Andrew ------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-07 22:49:01.------ :Is the funding based on the possibility of licensing the software, do you think? : :------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-07 22:26:02.------ ::i get the impression they're very well connected. they had external funding for those fancy screens at least. I don't know about university funding. :: ::------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-07 20:45:42.------ :::Well, I think they should just work with our code, frankly, though I'm obviously biased. I'd certainly be willing to work with them. If they don't want to, I'd be interested in what they don't like about Deme. Are they funded by the university? If this is a student project, don't you think they'll find that a general groupware project is a lot to manage from scratch? - as we have, of course, but we've been at it for a year and a half. I see Dylan Arena is one of their tech folks, an SSP 2001 grad who was an AF. He's the guy who emailed ssp-af last fall about how great open source is and that he'd like to work with us to spread awareness of it. Maybe it's time to talk to him about Deme. ::: :::------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-07 19:26:53.------ ::::I completely forgot to mention this during out meeting today. isis.stanford.edu is a student group that spends probably too much money creating admittedly nifty information technology things for campus. They made events.stanford.edu, and also were behind those (silly) plasma screens advertising campus events. Anyway, I recently ran into a friend of mine with them; now they're starting this big project to make a yahoo-groups-like system for dorms and groups campuswide. mailing lists, photo galleries, blogs, etc. :::: ::::Anyway, I got myself agreed in to giving a talk on Deme to them on next Tues, 10/12 9pm at wallenberg 127. Though of course I'm warning it's definitely alpha-stage software. My friend had already heard about us through Leo Ortolano (Haas director, where we get funding!) I don't know how useful Deme would be to them at this point, though hopefully they'll have useful things to say. And connecting up with more software-oriented students seems like a good thing to do. Potential contributors and such. :::: ::::any thoughts, folks?	2004-10-08 11:44:11	240	0	1
does too!	todd	:I think having a non-intrusive link that says \\"emailed attachments\\" is a great solution for another reason, if the attachment is garbage like someone\\'s Outlook stationary or some 50-byte \\"reply requested\\" junk then it won\\'t be automatically loaded when the comment is viewed. Users can determine based on e-mail content and the attachment filename whether or not an attachment is worth viewing. I can see the argument for designating a comment as posted by email, and also helping users to decide whether the attachment is bogus, but see below. :I don\\'t think that an \\"emailed attachments\\" link would favor e-mail posting, because it requires extra clicks to view this type of attachment. It\\'s difficult to imagine a user that would rather people go through extra work to view the document he or she is trying to post. Plus, it\\'s still more convienent to post a binary (or plain text) document as a \\"document item type.\\" If attachments are available, though, I\\'m pretty sure there will be situations in which that\\'s the preferred way to do something. Items are meant to be focal points of discussion, but if you think of them that way then there are other things people might want to attach as sidenotes and whatnot that should probably not take up space in the item index. Also, with Yahoo! Groups no longer archiving attachments, a lot of people might want to use Deme/Groupspace for that if word gets around. I don\\'t think that\\'s a negative thing as long as storage space can be managed. :This is now reminding me of another usage case that I think we need to handle. When a user posts a new message to the list via e-mail with an attachment(s), we (read: Deme) need to make sure to e-mail along the attachment(s) with the autogenerated post e-mail... am I making sense? Attachments can travel via listserv to other e-mail users. We need to be able to support this ability too. Right. Of course, if it gets out of hand then the storage of attachments on the web server could be turned off, as Yahoo did. Ideally this should be a parameter set by whoever installs :~Andrew : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-07 20:33:30.------ ::Actually, I don\\'t think we should release a version in which you can post attachments by email but not in the web version - that actually favors email posting. :: ::------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-07 19:05:08.------ :::agreed. I think they could be marked as \\"emailed attachments\\" so people don\\'t wonder why they can\\'t make their own attachments on the web posting interface. ::: ::: ::: :::------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-07 19:03:03.------ ::::I was left thinking we had agreed to make attachments appear as links within the view of a comment in comment reader, with behavior determined by the browser. Andrew and Brendan, do you agree? Might be good not to target the comment reader frame itself for loading an attachment, though.' , 1 , 241 , NOW() , 4 , 'todd' , 109 , 0 ) ---- db error! DB Error: syntax error INSERT msgs VALUES ( null, 'Re: doesn't favor e-mail' , '------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-08 11:35:49.------ :I think having a non-intrusive link that says \\"emailed attachments\\" is a great solution for another reason, if the attachment is garbage like someone\\'s Outlook stationary or some 50-byte \\"reply requested\\" junk then it won\\'t be automatically loaded when the comment is viewed. Users can determine based on e-mail content and the attachment filename whether or not an attachment is worth viewing. I can see the argument for designating a comment as posted by email, and also helping users to decide whether the attachment is bogus, but see below. :I don\\'t think that an \\"emailed attachments\\" link would favor e-mail posting, because it requires extra clicks to view this type of attachment. It\\'s difficult to imagine a user that would rather people go through extra work to view the document he or she is trying to post. Plus, it\\'s still more convienent to post a binary (or plain text) document as a \\"document item type.\\" If attachments are available, though, I\\'m pretty sure there will be situations in which that\\'s the preferred way to do something. Items are meant to be focal points of discussion, but if you think of them that way then there are other things people might want to attach as sidenotes and whatnot that should probably not take up space in the item index. Also, with Yahoo! Groups no longer archiving attachments, a lot of people might want to use Deme/Groupspace for that if word gets around. I don\\'t think that\\'s a negative thing as long as storage space can be managed. :This is now reminding me of another usage case that I think we need to handle. When a user posts a new message to the list via e-mail with an attachment(s), we (read: Deme) need to make sure to e-mail along the attachment(s) with the autogenerated post e-mail... am I making sense? Attachments can travel via listserv to other e-mail users. We need to be able to support this ability too. Right. Of course, if it gets out of hand then the storage of attachments on the web server could be turned off, as Yahoo did. Ideally this should be a parameter set by whoever installs :~Andrew : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-07 20:33:30.------ ::Actually, I don\\'t think we should release a version in which you can post attachments by email but not in the web version - that actually favors email posting. :: ::------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-07 19:05:08.------ :::agreed. I think they could be marked as \\"emailed attachments\\" so people don\\'t wonder why they can\\'t make their own attachments on the web posting interface. ::: ::: ::: :::------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-07 19:03:03.------ ::::I was left thinking we had agreed to make attachments appear as links within the view of a comment in comment reader, with behavior determined by the browser. Andrew and Brendan, do you agree? Might be good not to target the comment reader frame itself for loading an attachment, though.' , 1 , 241 , NOW() , 4 , 'todd' , 109 , 0 ) [nativecode=1064 ** You have an error in your SQL syntax near 't favor e-mail' , '------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-08 11:35:49.------ :I think ' at line 1]	2004-10-08 14:42:10	241	109	0
Update: "Error responding w/blank subject"	brendan	'brendan' became a handler for this task on October 8th, 2004, 15:05	2004-10-08 15:05:19	180	5	0
Update: "Error responding w/blank subject"	brendan	'brendan' completed this task on October 8th, 2004, 15:05	2004-10-08 15:05:29	180	5	1
Re: Update: "Error responding w/blank subject"	brendan	fixed in dev2, base2, and cvs ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-08 15:05:29.------ : : :'brendan' completed this task on October 8th, 2004, 15:05	2004-10-08 15:06:05	245	5	0
Re: special fees	todd	I think events.stanford is pretty useful, FWIW, although I dislike the fact that you have to go through official representatives to post something there. Also, Deme seems an order of magnitude more complex, don't you think? Student groups are definitely in our target audience. I gather the university doesn't like it when particularly incoming frosh set up Yahoo groups and destroy Stanford's efforts at social engineering - maybe this is related to that, an attempt to set up something that is more controlled. I'd like to know where the impetus came for Isis's idea to build groupware. ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-08 11:44:11.------ :I know that they have some university funding because they requested ASSU special fees. I know that because I remember voting against them. In general, I've regarded ISIS as a directionless money pit. I don't know any peers who have used either the events calendar or the plasma panel ads. : :That's not to say that their development on Deme code wouldn't be extremely useful. It would be great to get more input on our code; and the student body in general definitely falls under our target audience as they are a currently existing group in the real world that never has time to meet synchronously. I am a member of a couple of yahoo groups that are real campus groups, but that's only the case when majordomo won't host us, or when we don't want majordomo hosting us (in theory, all Stanford lists are monitored). : :~Andrew : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-07 22:49:01.------ ::Is the funding based on the possibility of licensing the software, do you think? :: ::------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-07 22:26:02.------ :::i get the impression they're very well connected. they had external funding for those fancy screens at least. I don't know about university funding. ::: :::------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-07 20:45:42.------ ::::Well, I think they should just work with our code, frankly, though I'm obviously biased. I'd certainly be willing to work with them. If they don't want to, I'd be interested in what they don't like about Deme. Are they funded by the university? If this is a student project, don't you think they'll find that a general groupware project is a lot to manage from scratch? - as we have, of course, but we've been at it for a year and a half. I see Dylan Arena is one of their tech folks, an SSP 2001 grad who was an AF. He's the guy who emailed ssp-af last fall about how great open source is and that he'd like to work with us to spread awareness of it. Maybe it's time to talk to him about Deme. :::: ::::------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-07 19:26:53.------ :::::I completely forgot to mention this during out meeting today. isis.stanford.edu is a student group that spends probably too much money creating admittedly nifty information technology things for campus. They made events.stanford.edu, and also were behind those (silly) plasma screens advertising campus events. Anyway, I recently ran into a friend of mine with them; now they're starting this big project to make a yahoo-groups-like system for dorms and groups campuswide. mailing lists, photo galleries, blogs, etc. ::::: :::::Anyway, I got myself agreed in to giving a talk on Deme to them on next Tues, 10/12 9pm at wallenberg 127. Though of course I'm warning it's definitely alpha-stage software. My friend had already heard about us through Leo Ortolano (Haas director, where we get funding!) I don't know how useful Deme would be to them at this point, though hopefully they'll have useful things to say. And connecting up with more software-oriented students seems like a good thing to do. Potential contributors and such. ::::: :::::any thoughts, folks?	2004-10-08 16:27:11	242	0	0
Update: "Task lettering problem"	alex	'alex' completed this task on October 9th, 2004, 15:42	2004-10-09 15:42:07	156	5	4
Update: "Task lettering problem"	alex	'alex' became a handler for this task on October 9th, 2004, 15:42	2004-10-09 15:42:17	156	5	0
Dev directories? CVS?	todd	What's the system right now for updating dev code? With everyone coding this quarter, it could get confusing. ------ alex wrote on: 2004-10-09 15:42:07.------ : : :'alex' completed this task on October 9th, 2004, 15:42	2004-10-10 00:52:05	248	5	0
Thanks, Brendan!	todd	Thanks to Brendan for his heroic efforts this morning getting Deme logins working again. Here's the email exchange, for future reference: Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 08:08:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Todd Davies gt; To: someone@stanford, brendano@stanford, aparker@stanford Subject: login error I can't login right now. Here's the URL: http://www.groupspace.org/base2/code/main/metalogin.php?redirect=%2Findex.php%3F forcelogin%3D1%26POD_SESSION%3Dec9110878557fae9e864a7e89a1fd4d3 Here's the error: Fatal error: Call to undefined function: isconnection() in /var/www/html/pod/base2/code/lib/AuthContainer/DB.php on line 137 I'll retry and send a message if successful. Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 11:30:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Brendan O'Connor gt; To: Todd Davies gt; Cc: someone@stanford.edu, aparker@stanford.edu Subject: Re: login error Deme relies on the PEAR DB library. PIECE automatically updates every day from a redhat 9 mirror on campus, to keep up with security updates. Last night it upgraded some of the php libraries, which switched around the version of PEAR DB somehow, and killed it. I'm fixing it now, and will take measures to prevent this from happening again. Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 12:40:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Brendan O'Connor gt; To: Todd Davies gt; Cc: Alex Cochran gt;, aparker@stanford.edu Subject: login error fixed - info below Well that was a mess. The login problem is fixed in base2, and I think I committed all the changes to cvs. I still can't get dev2/code working, but read below. the fix required lots of changes to deme code and highlights problems with our architecture. our php installation comes from a redhat RPM. the piece server is on a crontab apt-get updating the RPM's. Now, /usr/share/pear comes from the RPM. A long time ago, when I first used pear, I ran "pear install DB" and it got the newest PEAR DB library and installed it inside /usr/share/pear. But this is a bad policy, because if the php RPM is updated, it wants to own /usr/share/pear, so it will overwrite the updated files in there. This is bad because stanford's redhat 9 security update server was serving a new updated PHP. This newer PHP presumably fixed some security bug, but unfortunately, it came with the old PEAR DB files. This overwrote the pear-updated files, and lost the isConnection() API that caused that error. I tried to re-run "pear install DB" but it failed, saying the base "PEAR" package was uninstalled. this is a ludicrous error. conclusion: PEAR is a shitty system. I will never use its poorly implemented, non-redhat-integrated auto-install-update feature system again. I fixed it by installing PEAR and PEAR DB into base2's lib/ directory. This necessitated adding DB.php, PEAR.php, and the DB/ subdir. And I had to do massive search/replacements to change all "require 'DB.php'" to "require LIB.'/DB.php'" etc. Now the base2 code never uses the evil unreliable pear copy in /usr/share/pear. Also, it was a little annoying getting the code/ changes to work in the groups, I needed to update updatelinks.sh for the new lib/DB subdir and run it on all groups/*. It worked, but that annoyance is I think good evidence for changing away from the symlinked code system (as if we needed more evidence!) I committed the changes to CVS, so theoretically "cvs update" in any dev2 code dir should get them in. dev2/code still doesn't work though, but I don't have time at the moment to get it working. at least the base2 is functional, I know at least one person this morning couldn't post actual work on the AF_Internal group. -Brendan p.s. i also discovered "cvs diff" during all this. It's terrific.	2004-10-10 13:32:01	0	0	3
Re: Thanks, Brendan!	todd	Well, at least something positive has come of all this - we've learned a lot. FWIW, Symsys had a similar problem, relying on a particular version of Tomcat I think that was called centrally. The solution then (Hendra's) was like Brendan's - to run it locally. Is there an alternative to Pear DB that is better integrated with Redhat? It seems like any reliance on automatic apt-gets of PHP without checking the install each time could lead to problems. Also, isn't RH9 going off support at some point? ------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-10 13:32:01.------ :Thanks to Brendan for his heroic efforts this morning getting Deme logins working again. : :Here's the email exchange, for future reference: : : :Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 08:08:58 -0700 (PDT) :From: Todd Davies gt; :To: someone@stanford, brendano@stanford, aparker@stanford :Subject: login error : :I can't login right now. Here's the URL: : :http://www.groupspace.org/base2/code/main/metalogin.php?redirect=%2Findex.php%3F :forcelogin%3D1%26POD_SESSION%3Dec9110878557fae9e864a7e89a1fd4d3 : :Here's the error: : :Fatal error: Call to undefined function: isconnection() in :/var/www/html/pod/base2/code/lib/AuthContainer/DB.php on line 137 : :I'll retry and send a message if successful. : :Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 11:30:41 -0700 (PDT) :From: Brendan O'Connor gt; :To: Todd Davies gt; :Cc: someone@stanford.edu, aparker@stanford.edu :Subject: Re: login error : :Deme relies on the PEAR DB library. PIECE automatically updates every day :from a redhat 9 mirror on campus, to keep up with security updates. Last :night it upgraded some of the php libraries, which switched around the :version of PEAR DB somehow, and killed it. I'm fixing it now, and will :take measures to prevent this from happening again. : :Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 12:40:26 -0700 (PDT) :From: Brendan O'Connor gt; :To: Todd Davies gt; :Cc: Alex Cochran gt;, aparker@stanford.edu :Subject: login error fixed - info below : :Well that was a mess. The login problem is fixed in base2, and I think I :committed all the changes to cvs. I still can't get dev2/code working, :but read below. the fix required lots of changes to deme code and :highlights problems with our architecture. : :our php installation comes from a redhat RPM. the piece server is on a :crontab apt-get updating the RPM's. Now, /usr/share/pear comes from the :RPM. A long time ago, when I first used pear, I ran "pear install DB" and :it got the newest PEAR DB library and installed it inside /usr/share/pear. :But this is a bad policy, because if the php RPM is updated, it wants :to own /usr/share/pear, so it will overwrite the updated files in there. : :This is bad because stanford's redhat 9 security update server was serving :a new updated PHP. This newer PHP presumably fixed some security bug, but :unfortunately, it came with the old PEAR DB files. This overwrote the :pear-updated files, and lost the isConnection() API that caused that :error. : :I tried to re-run "pear install DB" but it failed, saying the base "PEAR" :package was uninstalled. this is a ludicrous error. conclusion: PEAR is :a shitty system. I will never use its poorly implemented, :non-redhat-integrated auto-install-update feature system again. : :I fixed it by installing PEAR and PEAR DB into base2's lib/ directory. :This necessitated adding DB.php, PEAR.php, and the DB/ subdir. And I had :to do massive search/replacements to change all "require 'DB.php'" to :"require LIB.'/DB.php'" etc. Now the base2 code never uses the evil :unreliable pear copy in /usr/share/pear. : :Also, it was a little annoying getting the code/ changes to work in the groups, I needed to update updatelinks.sh for the new lib/DB subdir and :run it on all groups/*. It worked, but that annoyance is I think good :evidence for changing away from the symlinked code system (as if we needed :more evidence!) : :I committed the changes to CVS, so theoretically "cvs update" in any dev2 :code dir should get them in. dev2/code still doesn't work though, but I :don't have time at the moment to get it working. at least the base2 is :functional, I know at least one person this morning couldn't post actual :work on the AF_Internal group. : :-Brendan : :p.s. i also discovered "cvs diff" during all this. It's terrific.	2004-10-10 13:43:26	251	0	2
Google Toolbar	andrew	Hey, I don't know how many of you guys are using the Google toolbar (I know I am), but I just remembered something pretty important. When you are using the toolbar to return pagerank information, if you travel to a page that google has not yet indexed, Google saves the url for future indexing. Make sure to turn off this feature on the google toolbar while working on Deme and viewing the forum. I nearly made this mistake today, but luckily I had the pagerank feature turned off already. We are using a robots.txt file in the groupspace.org root directory, but it's probably not a good idea to rely on that file. ~Andrew	2004-10-10 14:49:05	0	0	9
Update: "Task lettering problem"	todd	'todd' completed this task on October 10th, 2004, 15:51	2004-10-10 15:51:23	156	5	0
Task: "Wording of "completed" task update"	todd	Update should read "This task was marked completed by " instead of "'' completed this task". Tasks can be marked completed by anyone, not just their handlers.	2004-10-10 15:55:01	17	5	2
Re: Google Toolbar	todd	Hmmm, I should let the KPFA Labor Collective folks know about this, since they are concerned about security. I'm not using the Google Toolbar yet. Oh well, one more thing to worry about. :( ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-10 14:49:05.------ :Hey, I don't know how many of you guys are using the Google toolbar (I know I am), but I just remembered something pretty important. When you are using the toolbar to return pagerank information, if you travel to a page that google has not yet indexed, Google saves the url for future indexing. Make sure to turn off this feature on the google toolbar while working on Deme and viewing the forum. I nearly made this mistake today, but luckily I had the pagerank feature turned off already. We are using a robots.txt file in the groupspace.org root directory, but it's probably not a good idea to rely on that file. : :~Andrew	2004-10-10 16:02:20	253	0	0
Google caching?	todd	It seems like Google is going to have to make this work with private pages or else people aren't going to want to use the Toolbar. Am I right in thinking you are saying that Google can add the page you visit to its cache even if it requires a login to view it? Presumably if the meeting area got indexed, outsiders would still be turned away from private group spaces, but could possibly view the cache? ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-10 14:49:05.------ :Hey, I don't know how many of you guys are using the Google toolbar (I know I am), but I just remembered something pretty important. When you are using the toolbar to return pagerank information, if you travel to a page that google has not yet indexed, Google saves the url for future indexing. Make sure to turn off this feature on the google toolbar while working on Deme and viewing the forum. I nearly made this mistake today, but luckily I had the pagerank feature turned off already. We are using a robots.txt file in the groupspace.org root directory, but it's probably not a good idea to rely on that file. : :~Andrew	2004-10-10 16:20:31	253	0	7
Re: Google caching?	andrew	I don't know exactly how they handle this case, but I have definitely taken advantage of the cache to see pages that have since been hidden behind security. My example is harmless (like a powerpoint presentation in pdf form from a class at UVA that was restricted when I tried to view it), but I could see this being a problem. ~Andrew ------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-10 16:20:31.------ :It seems like Google is going to have to make this work with private pages or else people aren't going to want to use the Toolbar. Am I right in thinking you are saying that Google can add the page you visit to its cache even if it requires a login to view it? Presumably if the meeting area got indexed, outsiders would still be turned away from private group spaces, but could possibly view the cache? : :------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-10 14:49:05.------ ::Hey, I don't know how many of you guys are using the Google toolbar (I know I am), but I just remembered something pretty important. When you are using the toolbar to return pagerank information, if you travel to a page that google has not yet indexed, Google saves the url for future indexing. Make sure to turn off this feature on the google toolbar while working on Deme and viewing the forum. I nearly made this mistake today, but luckily I had the pagerank feature turned off already. We are using a robots.txt file in the groupspace.org root directory, but it's probably not a good idea to rely on that file. :: ::~Andrew	2004-10-10 16:24:14	257	0	6
New release?	todd	Since the code has been updated, it would be good to put a new release on the download page and post an announcement on freshmeat and in our news section. I know it probably takes around an hour to do all the steps in a release, but releasing often keeps interest high and reassures people that we are still around. Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 15:01:52 -0700 From: Andrew Parker gt; To: 'Brendan O'Connor' gt;, 'Todd Davies' gt; Cc: 'Alex Cochran' gt; Subject: RE: login error fixed - info below Wow, amazing save. This sounds like it was quite a mess. I would have been clueless in the face of this error. I'm going to try installing a new installation of Deme on the piece server today for two reasons: 1) I think we will all need our own dev installations anyway so we don't interfere with each other's development work. 2) I might learn why a CVS update on dev2 isn't working. Also, I copied and hacked up your updatelinks.sh to make a version that updates an entire group at once. The output is messy, but if you ever need to do a big update of the symbolic links (ie bigger than just one subdirectory in a group), then you can use that. It was really useful for me this summer when I was creating a new item type. Again, Kudos to your Brendan. ~Andrew	2004-10-10 16:33:43	252	0	1
Re: Re: Google caching?	todd	But it would also be a problem for much bigger fish than us, e.g. the proprietary sites. ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-10 16:24:14.------ : :I don't know exactly how they handle this case, but I have definitely taken advantage of the cache to see pages that have since been hidden behind security. My example is harmless (like a powerpoint presentation in pdf form from a class at UVA that was restricted when I tried to view it), but I could see this being a problem. : :~Andrew : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-10 16:20:31.------ ::It seems like Google is going to have to make this work with private pages or else people aren't going to want to use the Toolbar. Am I right in thinking you are saying that Google can add the page you visit to its cache even if it requires a login to view it? Presumably if the meeting area got indexed, outsiders would still be turned away from private group spaces, but could possibly view the cache? :: ::------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-10 14:49:05.------ :::Hey, I don't know how many of you guys are using the Google toolbar (I know I am), but I just remembered something pretty important. When you are using the toolbar to return pagerank information, if you travel to a page that google has not yet indexed, Google saves the url for future indexing. Make sure to turn off this feature on the google toolbar while working on Deme and viewing the forum. I nearly made this mistake today, but luckily I had the pagerank feature turned off already. We are using a robots.txt file in the groupspace.org root directory, but it's probably not a good idea to rely on that file. ::: :::~Andrew	2004-10-10 16:35:37	258	0	0
one standard: no private url's	brendan	there seems to be some conflict whether url's can be private; that is, the url is the password. I've seen it written in various places that you can't rely on private url's for security; that private url's eventually make their way to the public internet. I guess this google toolbar feature is one such hole. Another that I once read about is the Referrer field that web browsers send when retrieving a page; when you click on a link on page A pointing to page B, your browser tells B's server that you came from page A. This gets logged in a standard apache setup, so I presume it's stored ubiquitously (across many different servers). Actually, it looks like when you click on links in our system, the internal groupspace.org page of that pane gets sent as the referring url. I'm not sure of an easy way to fix this (without a big javascript undertaking that may not even work in the end)	2004-10-10 16:37:52	258	0	4
Task: "Add meta tags to homepage"	todd	Add keywords and description to Groupspace.org homepage.	2004-10-11 10:50:59	17	5	3
Update: "Add meta tags to homepage"	todd	'todd' became a handler for this task on October 11th, 2004, 10:51	2004-10-11 10:51:08	262	5	0
Update: "Add meta tags to homepage"	todd	'todd' completed this task on October 11th, 2004, 11:01	2004-10-11 11:01:54	262	5	0
Wading in	todd	I just completed the HTML unit of my web programming book (Internet and World Wide Web - How to Program, 3rd Ed., Deitel). So I got an idea from it for adding meta tags and did so. You can look at what I added via page source on the Groupspace.org home page. A couple of comments about this. First, this is a warning that I may be wading into the code a bit more. I will try not to ruin things, and may ask for clearance to change things if I'm uncertain, or just pose a question. Second, I think it's good practice to create a task for ourselves each time we make a change, even a trivial one, then handle and mark it as complete when done, so everyone knows what's happening. A question that occurred to me from my reading, which I'm not ready to look into on my own: Does the code contain a noframes element, i.e. specify behavior for browsers that don't support frames? ------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-11 10:50:59.------ :Add keywords and description to Groupspace.org homepage.	2004-10-11 11:13:02	262	5	0
Re: one standard: no private url's	todd	But pages can be password protected, right?, so that wouldn't fit your definition of a private url. Yet such pages might be cached by Google Toolbar if I understand Andrew correctly. Think of the compromises this would entail: private financial data getting cached in Google for general search, etc. I can't believe there's no way around that. Can the Google Toolbar behavior be controlled on the server side other than through general robot-fenders? ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-10 16:37:52.------ :there seems to be some conflict whether url's can be private; that is, the url is the password. I've seen it written in various places that you can't rely on private url's for security; that private url's eventually make their way to the public internet. I guess this google toolbar feature is one such hole. : :Another that I once read about is the Referrer field that web browsers send when retrieving a page; when you click on a link on page A pointing to page B, your browser tells B's server that you came from page A. This gets logged in a standard apache setup, so I presume it's stored ubiquitously (across many different servers). Actually, it looks like when you click on links in our system, the internal groupspace.org page of that pane gets sent as the referring url. I'm not sure of an easy way to fix this (without a big javascript undertaking that may not even work in the end)	2004-10-11 13:29:37	261	0	0
Exchange with Bayle: adding wiki to Deme	todd	From a recent exchange with Bayle Shanks, SSP grad now in the Ph.D. neuroscience program at UCSD, who is also a wiki programmer: Bayle: > > technology stuff, although i don't have too much time to do anything > > in it myself. when i do have time, i work on my "wiki gateway" open > > source software project, which is an attempt to give a unified API for > > remote interaction with all of the various wiki software packages (by > > creating a programming library that can interact with many of > > them). i'm also staying in touch with A.I. by taking about 1 Todd: > We want to add wiki capability within Deme, so one of us may bug you about > that. Ideally I'd like to find a nice wiki module written in PHP that we > could just plop into Deme and then modify to allow in-text commenting, > with comments tied to versions that can be easily recovered from the > diffs. Bayle: I'm not familiar with PHP, however I know that "PhpWiki" is one of the top wiki engines; I don't know how modular it is, but perhaps it would do the trick. As usual, you may want to ask the PhpWiki developers; there's always a chance they would even be happy to help with coding the integration between your code and theirs. Also, you may want to ask on MeatballWiki or on CommunityWiki to get advice from others. I guess it would make sense for you or another Deme developer to post a question to these pages: http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?PlatformForOnlineDeliberation http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/community?Deme	2004-10-11 13:33:44	0	0	0
Link: "Grouspace.info"	todd	I had thought this was defunct, but it seems to be going still. Enterprise groupware. The demo is worth a look. Organization by categories (events, projects, tasks, messages) could be useful in Deme.	2004-10-11 15:48:03	0	112	0
Referrer field	todd	It's clear that we can't protect URLs themselves (people can post them inadvertently on the web, for instance). So the key thing is password protection, right? The Google Toolbar problem is vexing as Andrew describes it because it sounds like Google might be putting private webpages (ones that require login) into its cache. Andrew, do you know that's happening? If so, Google could be sued for copyright infringement I would think. :Another that I once read about is the Referrer field that web browsers send when retrieving a page; when you click on a link on page A pointing to page B, your browser tells B's server that you came from page A. This gets logged in a standard apache setup, so I presume it's stored ubiquitously (across many different servers). Actually, it looks like when you click on links in our system, the internal groupspace.org page of that pane gets sent as the referring url. I'm not sure of an easy way to fix this (without a big javascript undertaking that may not even work in the end)	2004-10-11 15:54:58	261	0	2
Virus checking?	todd	Should we be worried about people uploading files with viruses, or just let individual users handle that?	2004-10-11 16:02:24	0	113	0
Presence detection	todd	Would be very useful at some point, especially if profiles had links to IM addresses.	2004-10-11 16:04:03	0	114	0
Member participation statistics	todd	Useful for revealing who is/is not being heard, who overposts. :)	2004-10-11 16:07:01	0	115	0
Task: "Include item in email notification"	todd	Comments in document text should have the item name reported in the email notification that gets sent out. Currently this doesn't happen, so you can't tell which item a comment has been made about without going to the meeting area.	2004-10-11 16:24:47	17	5	0
Updating estimated time on completion	todd	When we complete tasks, I think we should update the estimated time to reflect time actually spent. This will provide feedback into estimating time for future tasks, and also helps us understand what we are spending time on. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-11 13:10:06.------ :These are tasks associated with the next major release of Deme.	2004-10-11 16:28:57	17	5	0
Implement poll/survey	todd	Straw poll and survey could be combined into one type of item.	2004-10-11 16:41:48	0	117	0
to clarify...	andrew	To be clear, I'm pretty sure (though not positive) that when a client toolbar asks google.com for the pagerank of a particular URL, if google has not indexed the url requested, then google adds the URL to the list of URL to a queue of URL to index in the future. So, if the site is behind password protection, then the page will not be indexed (or just the login page will be indexed). However, if Google goes to index the page, and there is no password protection, then the page will be indexed and cached. This is how I accessed that random powerpoint presentation I mentioned in a previous post: at some point, it was not password protected, so Google cached/indexed it. When I tried to navigate to the URL via a google search, it was password protected, so I simply click the back button and accessed the cached plain-text version. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-11 15:54:58.------ :It's clear that we can't protect URLs themselves (people can post them inadvertently on the web, for instance). So the key thing is password protection, right? The Google Toolbar problem is vexing as Andrew describes it because it sounds like Google might be putting private webpages (ones that require login) into its cache. Andrew, do you know that's happening? If so, Google could be sued for copyright infringement I would think. : ::Another that I once read about is the Referrer field that web browsers send when retrieving a page; when you click on a link on page A pointing to page B, your browser tells B's server that you came from page A. This gets logged in a standard apache setup, so I presume it's stored ubiquitously (across many different servers). Actually, it looks like when you click on links in our system, the internal groupspace.org page of that pane gets sent as the referring url. I'm not sure of an easy way to fix this (without a big javascript undertaking that may not even work in the end)	2004-10-11 17:04:46	269	0	1
Okay, that makes sense	todd	I think I understand now. So the key is just to password-protect internal pages. ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-11 17:04:46.------ :To be clear, I'm pretty sure (though not positive) that when a client toolbar asks google.com for the pagerank of a particular URL, if google has not indexed the url requested, then google adds the URL to the list of URL to a queue of URL to index in the future. So, if the site is behind password protection, then the page will not be indexed (or just the login page will be indexed). However, if Google goes to index the page, and there is no password protection, then the page will be indexed and cached. This is how I accessed that random powerpoint presentation I mentioned in a previous post: at some point, it was not password protected, so Google cached/indexed it. When I tried to navigate to the URL via a google search, it was password protected, so I simply click the back button and accessed the cached plain-text version. : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-11 15:54:58.------ ::It's clear that we can't protect URLs themselves (people can post them inadvertently on the web, for instance). So the key thing is password protection, right? The Google Toolbar problem is vexing as Andrew describes it because it sounds like Google might be putting private webpages (ones that require login) into its cache. Andrew, do you know that's happening? If so, Google could be sued for copyright infringement I would think. :: :::Another that I once read about is the Referrer field that web browsers send when retrieving a page; when you click on a link on page A pointing to page B, your browser tells B's server that you came from page A. This gets logged in a standard apache setup, so I presume it's stored ubiquitously (across many different servers). Actually, it looks like when you click on links in our system, the internal groupspace.org page of that pane gets sent as the referring url. I'm not sure of an easy way to fix this (without a big javascript undertaking that may not even work in the end)	2004-10-11 17:33:42	276	0	0
Link: ""Here be dragons" by Eric Roberts"	todd	Eric's Faculty Senate documents bearing on "buy don't build" are together at the bottom of the page at http://facultysenate.stanford.edu. This link is the first memo listed, although it is the second link (they are mislabeled).	2004-10-12 10:40:48	0	118	0
Task: "Compatibility with Safari/Mac browsers"	todd	Mac browsers (IE, Safari and sometimes Netscape) produce problems in Deme, a recurring one of which is the flashing content in item display after new content is posted (observed in Safari and also once by Tom in Netscape, he reports). A lot of our target users are Mac-o-philes, so I think we need to address this soon. Perhaps this should be its own project?	2004-10-12 11:46:52	17	5	1
yeah we need it	brendan	good to have it high priority ------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-12 11:46:52.------ :Mac browsers (IE, Safari and sometimes Netscape) produce problems in Deme, a recurring one of which is the flashing content in item display after new content is posted (observed in Safari and also once by Tom in Netscape, he reports). A lot of our target users are Mac-o-philes, so I think we need to address this soon. Perhaps this should be its own project?	2004-10-12 11:54:33	279	5	0
Today's study question	todd	Today I'm studying CSSes, and also agreeing with Brendan's (?) observation earlier that it would be nice to be able to resize the viewers automatically depending on what they are displaying (e.g. the item index, a webpage or document). From my reading it seems like we could just ditch frameset for the most part (except when it might be needed fo displaying other websites?) and use style sheets with and JavaScript with div boxes and so on, to give a look that is cleaner and more nimble, a la Gmail. It reminds me of hearing from Andrew about an exchange he had with Brendan by email this summer about Gmail. Am I on the right track? If I move the vertical bar way over to the left when the item index is in the item display, it looks much clearer what's discussion and what are items. But if I load a document, I would want the browser window to dynamically resize everything so the item display is much bigger, for example. Brendan, is this what you had in mind?	2004-10-12 17:45:51	0	0	10
don't think divs work	brendan	two big problems i can think of 1) You can't scroll inside a . That makes them pretty useless for what we're doing. Gmail has one big page that is scrolled together (the standard webpage model) In my experience, readings that trumpet over are usually talking about websites that have something like a sidebar on the left and a main page in the middle. 2) Frames have the additional advantage that each can reload separately. You can't reload an individual , you're only allowed to reload entire pages. Gmail gets around the whole-page-reload limitation by using the javascript Xmlhttprequest class, to send and receive data completely divorced from the page-request-load model. this breaks the rules that most every non-frame website ever has had to live by. it's cool that it works so well. xmlhttprequest seemed to me too untested and too bleeding-edge when we started deme back in the day. I guess now it's a proven technology though. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-12 17:45:51.------ :Today I'm studying CSSes, and also agreeing with Brendan's (?) observation earlier that it would be nice to be able to resize the viewers automatically depending on what they are displaying (e.g. the item index, a webpage or document). From my reading it seems like we could just ditch frameset for the most part (except when it might be needed fo displaying other websites?) and use style sheets with and JavaScript with div boxes and so on, to give a look that is cleaner and more nimble, a la Gmail. It reminds me of hearing from Andrew about an exchange he had with Brendan by email this summer about Gmail. Am I on the right track? If I move the vertical bar way over to the left when the item index is in the item display, it looks much clearer what's discussion and what are items. But if I load a document, I would want the browser window to dynamically resize everything so the item display is much bigger, for example. Brendan, is this what you had in mind?	2004-10-12 17:57:06	281	0	7
dynamic resizing good!	brendan	Yes, making the left bar big upon entry into the meeting area, and then the right pane big after you click on an item, to refocus on the discussion, would be the type of thing I had in mind. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-12 17:45:51.------ :Today I'm studying CSSes, and also agreeing with Brendan's (?) observation earlier that it would be nice to be able to resize the viewers automatically depending on what they are displaying (e.g. the item index, a webpage or document). From my reading it seems like we could just ditch frameset for the most part (except when it might be needed fo displaying other websites?) and use style sheets with and JavaScript with div boxes and so on, to give a look that is cleaner and more nimble, a la Gmail. It reminds me of hearing from Andrew about an exchange he had with Brendan by email this summer about Gmail. Am I on the right track? If I move the vertical bar way over to the left when the item index is in the item display, it looks much clearer what's discussion and what are items. But if I load a document, I would want the browser window to dynamically resize everything so the item display is much bigger, for example. Brendan, is this what you had in mind?	2004-10-12 17:58:36	281	0	1
Re: don't think divs work	todd	------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-12 17:57:06.------ :two big problems i can think of : :1) You can't scroll inside a . That makes them pretty useless for what we're doing. Gmail has one big page that is scrolled together (the standard webpage model) According to my book, you can. You do: :In my experience, readings that trumpet over are usually talking about websites that have something like a sidebar on the left and a main page in the middle. The examples in the book are not like that. The div elements are, for example, floating boxes that text wraps around. :2) Frames have the additional advantage that each can reload separately. You can't reload an individual , you're only allowed to reload entire pages. : :Gmail gets around the whole-page-reload limitation by using the javascript Xmlhttprequest class, to send and receive data completely divorced from the page-request-load model. this breaks the rules that most every non-frame website ever has had to live by. it's cool that it works so well. xmlhttprequest seemed to me too untested and too bleeding-edge when we started deme back in the day. I guess now it's a proven technology though. An issue I want to know more about with CSSes is cross-browser support for attributes etc. The book points to a site with charts on this, but it requires a login and I haven't bothered to set up an account: www.dj.com/webreview/style I noticed that the CSS reference on the Deme Wiki is for CSS2. Here's a site for CSS3 that the book recommends: www.w3.org/TR/css3-roadmap Todd (annoying newbie) :------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-12 17:45:51.------ ::Today I'm studying CSSes, and also agreeing with Brendan's (?) observation earlier that it would be nice to be able to resize the viewers automatically depending on what they are displaying (e.g. the item index, a webpage or document). From my reading it seems like we could just ditch frameset for the most part (except when it might be needed fo displaying other websites?) and use style sheets with and JavaScript with div boxes and so on, to give a look that is cleaner and more nimble, a la Gmail. It reminds me of hearing from Andrew about an exchange he had with Brendan by email this summer about Gmail. Am I on the right track? If I move the vertical bar way over to the left when the item index is in the item display, it looks much clearer what's discussion and what are items. But if I load a document, I would want the browser window to dynamically resize everything so the item display is much bigger, for example. Brendan, is this what you had in mind?	2004-10-12 20:49:27	282	0	6
Re: dynamic resizing good!	todd	Okay, actually, this was the opposite of what I was thinking, which was: small left viewer at first (viewing item index), then expanding as you look at an item. I've been thinking that we actually don't want to have too many items posted, which is one reason I support attachments to comments as a separate feature. I worry that the prominence we give to the item viewer is misleading when it's displaying the index, that people confuse it with discussion or comments. Tom mistakenly (I think) posted a comment as a document today, and I've had others tell me they think the left pane looks like another message board. What you propose is more like the original idea we had: to get people focused on the items first, and then make comments around them. I think the problem may be that instead people would think the left pane is "where it's at" and post too much there instead of as comments. Items are not good places for people to post casual things because they have no structural relationship to each other. Yet you could actually carry on a conversation with items, and I now think people may be inclined to do that (as they do with the Announcements feature on the group home page). ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-12 17:58:36.------ :Yes, making the left bar big upon entry into the meeting area, and then the right pane big after you click on an item, to refocus on the discussion, would be the type of thing I had in mind. : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-12 17:45:51.------ ::Today I'm studying CSSes, and also agreeing with Brendan's (?) observation earlier that it would be nice to be able to resize the viewers automatically depending on what they are displaying (e.g. the item index, a webpage or document). From my reading it seems like we could just ditch frameset for the most part (except when it might be needed fo displaying other websites?) and use style sheets with and JavaScript with div boxes and so on, to give a look that is cleaner and more nimble, a la Gmail. It reminds me of hearing from Andrew about an exchange he had with Brendan by email this summer about Gmail. Am I on the right track? If I move the vertical bar way over to the left when the item index is in the item display, it looks much clearer what's discussion and what are items. But if I load a document, I would want the browser window to dynamically resize everything so the item display is much bigger, for example. Brendan, is this what you had in mind?	2004-10-12 21:03:07	283	0	0
look/feel options	todd	Differentiation of groups from each other would be a good thing, and groups have said it's important to them ("branding"). We could offer style sheets like banks offer different backgrounds for your checks, or let people define their own (with validation).	2004-10-12 21:06:56	0	120	0
Re: Re: don't think divs work	andrew	This issue is particularly pertinent to Deme where CSS bleeds over into Javascript. Deme relies heavily on setting and resetting style sheet attributes through Javascript. Microsoft's support for this ability is so different from Netscape's version, they gave it a completely different name: JScript. Trying to make Deme compliant with all browsers when dynamically changing CSS attributes is at the core of many of our problems. ~Andrew --- Todd Wrote: --- :An issue I want to know more about with CSSes is cross-browser support for attributes etc.	2004-10-12 21:16:22	284	0	5
Once again, newbie asks...	todd	Book says that Microsoft and Netscape agreed on a standard for JavaScript, ECMA-262 (www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/ECMA-262.htm. Does sticking to this standard not solve the problem? ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-12 21:16:22.------ :This issue is particularly pertinent to Deme where CSS bleeds over into Javascript. Deme relies heavily on setting and resetting style sheet attributes through Javascript. Microsoft's support for this ability is so different from Netscape's version, they gave it a completely different name: JScript. Trying to make Deme compliant with all browsers when dynamically changing CSS attributes is at the core of many of our problems. : :~Andrew : :--- Todd Wrote: --- ::An issue I want to know more about with CSSes is cross-browser support for attributes etc.	2004-10-12 21:22:35	287	0	4
Hmmm	todd	Okay, having visited the ECMA site after I posted it, I now see that 262 is dated Dec. 1999. So I'm guessing we're using JavaScript that has been developed since then, for which there is no standard? ------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-12 21:22:35.------ :Book says that Microsoft and Netscape agreed on a standard for JavaScript, ECMA-262 (www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/ECMA-262.htm. Does sticking to this standard not solve the problem? : :------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-12 21:16:22.------ ::This issue is particularly pertinent to Deme where CSS bleeds over into Javascript. Deme relies heavily on setting and resetting style sheet attributes through Javascript. Microsoft's support for this ability is so different from Netscape's version, they gave it a completely different name: JScript. Trying to make Deme compliant with all browsers when dynamically changing CSS attributes is at the core of many of our problems. :: ::~Andrew :: ::--- Todd Wrote: --- :::An issue I want to know more about with CSSes is cross-browser support for attributes etc.	2004-10-12 21:25:21	288	0	3
Spoke too soon	todd	So ECMA is now up to 357 (June 2004). I really should look into this stuff more on my own before troubling you guys. Just ignore me if it gets annoying - I use this group as a memory bank sometimes. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-12 21:25:21.------ :Okay, having visited the ECMA site after I posted it, I now see that 262 is dated Dec. 1999. So I'm guessing we're using JavaScript that has been developed since then, for which there is no standard? : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-12 21:22:35.------ ::Book says that Microsoft and Netscape agreed on a standard for JavaScript, ECMA-262 (www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/ECMA-262.htm. Does sticking to this standard not solve the problem? :: ::------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-12 21:16:22.------ :::This issue is particularly pertinent to Deme where CSS bleeds over into Javascript. Deme relies heavily on setting and resetting style sheet attributes through Javascript. Microsoft's support for this ability is so different from Netscape's version, they gave it a completely different name: JScript. Trying to make Deme compliant with all browsers when dynamically changing CSS attributes is at the core of many of our problems. ::: :::~Andrew ::: :::--- Todd Wrote: --- ::::An issue I want to know more about with CSSes is cross-browser support for attributes etc.	2004-10-12 21:28:52	289	0	2
Update on DB Auth failure	andrew	I just finished installing a test installation of Deme. It's at /var/www/html/deme/devpar/ At first it didn't work, I spent a bunch of time barking up wrong trees (fiddling with conf files mainly). I ended up finding inconsistancies between base2 and the cvsroot. All the files in the /lib/DB folder needed to be added to the root. Also, group creation was broken, so I added the /lib/DB directory to the updatelinks.sh files, then it worked. I haven't tested it all yet, but the auth system works, and that's what was broken. dev2 works now, however, I noticed that Alex has his own code directory in the dev2. I didn't touch that directory, so I'm guess that his copy of the code is still broken. ~Andrew	2004-10-12 21:56:17	0	0	5
Individual code directories	alex	Yeah, I just checkouted out my own copy of base2 so I could fearlessly change code without issue. I don't think my code ever worked as a stand alone installation. Which brings up an interesting point: I think we should have our own standalone code version, but we may not necessarily need full, separate installations of Deme. Brendan, you set this up last year. Will a similar solution work again?	2004-10-12 22:33:13	291	0	4
Meeting this week	todd	Alex, have you figured out your schedule? Is the conflict with our Thursday meeting time permanent?	2004-10-13 00:33:16	0	0	6
also	brendan	also, the "ecmascript" standard says nothing about webbrowser-specific functions, or interaction with css or html. It only covers language primitives - ints, strings, the object model, hashtables and the like.	2004-10-13 00:33:59	290	0	1
separate installations	brendan	what i did last year was get 2 code bases, but configured them to use the same data dir and database. I think we should just make 3 totally separate installs, esp. if one of us is doing work that involves changing the data schema. Doing a full checkout from cvs will be very good to do, too - andrew already fixed a bug in the cvs (me forgetting to check in lib/DB/*) ------ alex wrote on: 2004-10-12 22:33:13.------ : :Yeah, I just checkouted out my own copy of base2 so I could fearlessly change code without issue. I don't think my code ever worked as a stand alone installation. : :Which brings up an interesting point: I think we should have our own standalone code version, but we may not necessarily need full, separate installations of Deme. Brendan, you set this up last year. Will a similar solution work again?	2004-10-13 00:38:37	292	0	0
Schedule for me	alex	This week, and in the forseeable future, I have section from 2 to 2:45ish. And from 4 to 6. So I am available 3 to 4, now. (That was last weeks meeting, correct?)	2004-10-13 00:41:21	293	0	5
Great!	todd	Everyone - Can we meet Thursdays at 3 instead of 3:15? That way I can cut out earlier for the forum. ------ alex wrote on: 2004-10-13 00:41:21.------ :This week, and in the forseeable future, I have section from 2 to 2:45ish. And from 4 to 6. So I am available 3 to 4, now. (That was last weeks meeting, correct?)	2004-10-13 00:45:41	296	0	4
CVS policy	brendan	We also need a clear-cut policy for what goes in to CVS. I propose: Only check in changes that you are SURE can be checked back in to base2 WITHOUT breaking anything. And then check them back in to base2 yourself. If you think it's a risky change, do it at a safe low-use time for deme, like late-night pacific time? And then on the project tasklist, make SURE to say WHICH branches have the bug fixed, e.g. "fixed in dev-alex, cvs, but not yet base2" Tangent. The only way we currently have to check current deme usage atm is to display all of php's serialized session hashes. Anything with an "auth" key means that user is currently logged in (but not necessarily that they are posting. I think these session hashes go away if the user comes back, or a several hour timeout is reached) as root: [root@piece root]# for f in /tmp/sess*; do cat $f; echo; done auth|a:4:{s:10:"registered";b:1;s:8:"username";s:4:"alex";s:9:"timestamp";i:1097645359;s:4:"idle";i:1097645359;}usehelp|s:1:"1"; auth|a:4:{s:10:"registered";b:1;s:8:"username";s:7:"brendan";s:9:"timestamp";i:1097652761;s:4:"idle";i:1097652761;}usehelp|s:1:"1"; auth|a:4:{s:10:"registered";b:1;s:8:"username";s:4:"todd";s:9:"timestamp";i:1097638403;s:4:"idle";i:1097638403;}usehelp|s:1:"1"; auth|a:4:{s:10:"registered";b:1;s:8:"username";s:11:"kazmi torii";s:9:"timestamp";i:1097645859;s:4:"idle";i:1097645859;}usehelp|s:1:"1"; auth|a:4:{s:10:"registered";b:1;s:8:"username";s:11:"kazmi torii";s:9:"timestamp";i:1097645684;s:4:"idle";i:1097645684;}usehelp|s:1:"1";	2004-10-13 00:46:37	292	0	2
thanks, that's useful to know (nm)	todd	------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-13 00:33:59.------ :also, the "ecmascript" standard says nothing about webbrowser-specific functions, or interaction with css or html. It only covers language primitives - ints, strings, the object model, hashtables and the like.	2004-10-13 00:46:59	294	0	0
3:10 for me	brendan	econ lecture runs until 3:05 for me ------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-13 00:45:41.------ :Everyone - Can we meet Thursdays at 3 instead of 3:15? That way I can cut out earlier for the forum. : :------ alex wrote on: 2004-10-13 00:41:21.------ ::This week, and in the forseeable future, I have section from 2 to 2:45ish. And from 4 to 6. So I am available 3 to 4, now. (That was last weeks meeting, correct?)	2004-10-13 00:47:42	297	0	3
Re: CVS policy	todd	Hendra developed a simple "Changes in progress" notification system for Symsys, so you know to log off etc. Do we have a way to do this for both warning and during new installs? ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-13 00:46:37.------ :We also need a clear-cut policy for what goes in to CVS. I propose: Only check in changes that you are SURE can be checked back in to base2 WITHOUT breaking anything. And then check them back in to base2 yourself. If you think it's a risky change, do it at a safe low-use time for deme, like late-night pacific time? And then on the project tasklist, make SURE to say WHICH branches have the bug fixed, e.g. "fixed in dev-alex, cvs, but not yet base2" : :Tangent. :The only way we currently have to check current deme usage atm is to display all of php's serialized session hashes. Anything with an "auth" key means that user is currently logged in (but not necessarily that they are posting. I think these session hashes go away if the user comes back, or a several hour timeout is reached) : :as root: : :[root@piece root]# for f in /tmp/sess*; do cat $f; echo; done :auth|a:4:{s:10:"registered";b:1;s:8:"username";s:4:"alex";s:9:"timestamp";i:1097645359;s:4:"idle";i:1097645359;}usehelp|s:1:"1"; :auth|a:4:{s:10:"registered";b:1;s:8:"username";s:7:"brendan";s:9:"timestamp";i:1097652761;s:4:"idle";i:1097652761;}usehelp|s:1:"1"; :auth|a:4:{s:10:"registered";b:1;s:8:"username";s:4:"todd";s:9:"timestamp";i:1097638403;s:4:"idle";i:1097638403;}usehelp|s:1:"1"; :auth|a:4:{s:10:"registered";b:1;s:8:"username";s:11:"kazmi torii";s:9:"timestamp";i:1097645859;s:4:"idle";i:1097645859;}usehelp|s:1:"1"; :auth|a:4:{s:10:"registered";b:1;s:8:"username";s:11:"kazmi torii";s:9:"timestamp";i:1097645684;s:4:"idle";i:1097645684;}usehelp|s:1:"1"; :	2004-10-13 00:50:01	298	0	0
Re: 3:10 for me	todd	Yes, I remember now. Andrew, 3:10 on Thursdays okay? ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-13 00:47:42.------ :econ lecture runs until 3:05 for me : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-13 00:45:41.------ ::Everyone - Can we meet Thursdays at 3 instead of 3:15? That way I can cut out earlier for the forum. :: ::------ alex wrote on: 2004-10-13 00:41:21.------ :::This week, and in the forseeable future, I have section from 2 to 2:45ish. And from 4 to 6. So I am available 3 to 4, now. (That was last weeks meeting, correct?)	2004-10-13 00:52:24	300	0	2
3:10 works	andrew	yup. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-13 00:52:24.------ :Yes, I remember now. Andrew, 3:10 on Thursdays okay? : :------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-13 00:47:42.------ ::econ lecture runs until 3:05 for me :: ::------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-13 00:45:41.------ :::Everyone - Can we meet Thursdays at 3 instead of 3:15? That way I can cut out earlier for the forum. ::: :::------ alex wrote on: 2004-10-13 00:41:21.------ ::::This week, and in the forseeable future, I have section from 2 to 2:45ish. And from 4 to 6. So I am available 3 to 4, now. (That was last weeks meeting, correct?)	2004-10-13 12:01:41	302	0	1
agree and thanks	andrew	thanks for that little root command. I never knew how to determine who was currently logged in. That's great. I think your CVS policy is optimal. Sounds great. ~Andrew ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-13 00:46:37.------ :We also need a clear-cut policy for what goes in to CVS. I propose: Only check in changes that you are SURE can be checked back in to base2 WITHOUT breaking anything. And then check them back in to base2 yourself. If you think it's a risky change, do it at a safe low-use time for deme, like late-night pacific time? And then on the project tasklist, make SURE to say WHICH branches have the bug fixed, e.g. "fixed in dev-alex, cvs, but not yet base2" : :Tangent. :The only way we currently have to check current deme usage atm is to display all of php's serialized session hashes. Anything with an "auth" key means that user is currently logged in (but not necessarily that they are posting. I think these session hashes go away if the user comes back, or a several hour timeout is reached) : :as root: : :[root@piece root]# for f in /tmp/sess*; do cat $f; echo; done :auth|a:4:{s:10:"registered";b:1;s:8:"username";s:4:"alex";s:9:"timestamp";i:1097645359;s:4:"idle";i:1097645359;}usehelp|s:1:"1"; :auth|a:4:{s:10:"registered";b:1;s:8:"username";s:7:"brendan";s:9:"timestamp";i:1097652761;s:4:"idle";i:1097652761;}usehelp|s:1:"1"; :auth|a:4:{s:10:"registered";b:1;s:8:"username";s:4:"todd";s:9:"timestamp";i:1097638403;s:4:"idle";i:1097638403;}usehelp|s:1:"1"; :auth|a:4:{s:10:"registered";b:1;s:8:"username";s:11:"kazmi torii";s:9:"timestamp";i:1097645859;s:4:"idle";i:1097645859;}usehelp|s:1:"1"; :auth|a:4:{s:10:"registered";b:1;s:8:"username";s:11:"kazmi torii";s:9:"timestamp";i:1097645684;s:4:"idle";i:1097645684;}usehelp|s:1:"1"; :	2004-10-13 12:03:07	298	0	0
It's set: Thursdays at 3:10	todd	for our weekly meetings. See you all tomorrow. ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-13 12:01:41.------ :yup. : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-13 00:52:24.------ ::Yes, I remember now. Andrew, 3:10 on Thursdays okay? :: ::------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-13 00:47:42.------ :::econ lecture runs until 3:05 for me ::: :::------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-13 00:45:41.------ ::::Everyone - Can we meet Thursdays at 3 instead of 3:15? That way I can cut out earlier for the forum. :::: ::::------ alex wrote on: 2004-10-13 00:41:21.------ :::::This week, and in the forseeable future, I have section from 2 to 2:45ish. And from 4 to 6. So I am available 3 to 4, now. (That was last weeks meeting, correct?)	2004-10-13 12:05:09	303	0	0
documents are not displaying correctly	todd	I'm getting : Warning: Wrong datatype in usort() call in /var/www/html/pod/base2/code/lib/WSObject.php on line 55 for every word in displayed documents under Mozilla/Linux.	2004-10-13 14:51:26	0	0	5
Deme is broken	todd	Lots of errors, e.g. Warning: Wrong datatype in usort() call in /var/www/html/pod/base2/code/lib/WSObject.php on line 58 ------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-13 14:51:26.------ :I'm getting : : :Warning: Wrong datatype in usort() call in /var/www/html/pod/base2/code/lib/WSObject.php on line 55 : :for every word in displayed documents under Mozilla/Linux. : :	2004-10-13 15:28:05	306	0	4
All fixed	alex	My fault, all fixed now. I thought I was making a small secluded test, but it was a bit bigger. This link checking is more of a pain than I hoped. I'm having to do some serious regular expression brushing up. On that note, dev2 is still not working. I'll try a cvs update, but I don't want to mess around overly much. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-13 15:28:05.------ :Lots of errors, e.g. : :Warning: Wrong datatype in usort() call in /var/www/html/pod/base2/code/lib/WSObject.php on line 58 : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-13 14:51:26.------ ::I'm getting : :: ::Warning: Wrong datatype in usort() call in /var/www/html/pod/base2/code/lib/WSObject.php on line 55 :: ::for every word in displayed documents under Mozilla/Linux. :: ::	2004-10-13 15:56:05	307	0	3
Update: "Link parsing in curmsg"	alex	'alex' became a handler for this task on October 13th, 2004, 15:57	2004-10-13 15:57:10	41	5	0
problem with dev	alex	I realize that the only problem with the dev group I was using, was that I haven't symlinked the DB folder. However, when I try to, it says I don't have permissions. This seems odd. Do I have to su into root? If so, could someone email me the password. ------ alex wrote on: 2004-10-13 15:56:05.------ :My fault, all fixed now. : :I thought I was making a small secluded test, but it was a bit bigger. This link checking is more of a pain than I hoped. I'm having to do some serious regular expression brushing up. : :On that note, dev2 is still not working. I'll try a cvs update, but I don't want to mess around overly much. : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-13 15:28:05.------ ::Lots of errors, e.g. :: ::Warning: Wrong datatype in usort() call in /var/www/html/pod/base2/code/lib/WSObject.php on line 58 :: ::------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-13 14:51:26.------ :::I'm getting : ::: :::Warning: Wrong datatype in usort() call in /var/www/html/pod/base2/code/lib/WSObject.php on line 55 ::: :::for every word in displayed documents under Mozilla/Linux. ::: :::	2004-10-13 16:05:46	308	0	2
cvs update updatelinks.sh	brendan	"w" command indicates we're all on PIECE at once. woohoo alex: make sure to cvs update for code/updatelinks.sh and rerun it over all the group dirs as root. all the group dirs these days are owned by the "apache" user, because addgroup.sh is now run directly by php. Therefore our user accounts can't cut it, need root. updatelinks.sh had to be modified to bring in the symlinks of lib/DB. i modified it during the little outage crisis last sunday. ------ alex wrote on: 2004-10-13 16:05:46.------ :I realize that the only problem with the dev group I was using, was that I haven't symlinked the DB folder. However, when I try to, it says I don't have permissions. This seems odd. Do I have to su into root? If so, could someone email me the password. : : :------ alex wrote on: 2004-10-13 15:56:05.------ ::My fault, all fixed now. :: ::I thought I was making a small secluded test, but it was a bit bigger. This link checking is more of a pain than I hoped. I'm having to do some serious regular expression brushing up. :: ::On that note, dev2 is still not working. I'll try a cvs update, but I don't want to mess around overly much. :: ::------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-13 15:28:05.------ :::Lots of errors, e.g. ::: :::Warning: Wrong datatype in usort() call in /var/www/html/pod/base2/code/lib/WSObject.php on line 58 ::: :::------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-13 14:51:26.------ ::::I'm getting : :::: ::::Warning: Wrong datatype in usort() call in /var/www/html/pod/base2/code/lib/WSObject.php on line 55 :::: ::::for every word in displayed documents under Mozilla/Linux. :::: ::::	2004-10-13 20:00:41	310	0	1
Update: "Wording of "completed" task update"	alex	'alex' completed this task on October 14th, 2004, 10:08	2004-10-14 10:08:31	255	5	1
Task completed	alex	Though it may not seem it from this message, I did complete the task. I just forgot to update in base2. ------ alex wrote on: 2004-10-14 10:08:31.------ : : :'alex' completed this task on October 14th, 2004, 10:08	2004-10-14 10:10:39	312	5	0
A few thoughts	todd	Thanks, Alex and Brendan, for the helpful messages. A few tips on root passwords from Martin Frost in CS: (1) Always login to root using su after logging in under your username, so root logins can be traced if need be; (2) Don't email the root password - we should probably change it if has been sent through email. We should talk today about the procedure for committing updates to the base code. I think I favor a policy of updating for public use only when we do releases, but doing them frequently (as much as once a week). Updates to a common (CVS?) directory could be more frequent, with some lag before public release to make sure everything is working. ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-13 20:00:41.------ :"w" command indicates we're all on PIECE at once. woohoo : :alex: make sure to cvs update for code/updatelinks.sh and rerun it over :all the group dirs as root. all the group dirs these days are owned by :the "apache" user, because addgroup.sh is now run directly by php. :Therefore our user accounts can't cut it, need root. : :updatelinks.sh had to be modified to bring in the symlinks of lib/DB. i :modified it during the little outage crisis last sunday. : : :------ alex wrote on: 2004-10-13 16:05:46.------ ::I realize that the only problem with the dev group I was using, was that I haven't symlinked the DB folder. However, when I try to, it says I don't have permissions. This seems odd. Do I have to su into root? If so, could someone email me the password. :: :: ::------ alex wrote on: 2004-10-13 15:56:05.------ :::My fault, all fixed now. ::: :::I thought I was making a small secluded test, but it was a bit bigger. This link checking is more of a pain than I hoped. I'm having to do some serious regular expression brushing up. ::: :::On that note, dev2 is still not working. I'll try a cvs update, but I don't want to mess around overly much. ::: :::------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-13 15:28:05.------ ::::Lots of errors, e.g. :::: ::::Warning: Wrong datatype in usort() call in /var/www/html/pod/base2/code/lib/WSObject.php on line 58 :::: ::::------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-13 14:51:26.------ :::::I'm getting : ::::: :::::Warning: Wrong datatype in usort() call in /var/www/html/pod/base2/code/lib/WSObject.php on line 55 ::::: :::::for every word in displayed documents under Mozilla/Linux. ::::: :::::	2004-10-14 11:14:59	311	0	0
Task: "Change "implementation details" to "Notes""	todd	I think that "Implementation details" should be changed to "Notes" in the decision item type, with a parenthetical explanation: "(e.g. further information, a plan for implementation, etc.)".	2004-10-14 11:57:53	17	5	0
Update: "Linkify task descriptions"	alex	'alex' became a handler for this task on October 14th, 2004, 12:53	2004-10-14 12:53:09	120	5	0
Update: "Linkify task descriptions"	alex	Updated on October 14th, 2004, 13:00 by alex -Description changed from 'Recognition of URLs and linkification need to be added to task descriptions. Can this be enabled for all text entry in a more general way? I'm creating a new category of task called "Inconsistency" to describe tasks like this which are not exactly bugs to be fixed but rather needs for consistent behavior.' to 'Recognition of URLs and linkification need to be added to task descriptions. Can this be enabled for all text entry in a more general way? I\\'m creating a new category of task called \\"Inconsistency\\" to describe tasks like this which are not exactly bugs to be fixed but rather needs for consistent behavior.' -Est. Time changed from '0' to '0.25'	2004-10-14 13:00:03	120	5	0
Update: "Linkify task descriptions"	alex	'alex' marked this task as completed on October 14th, 2004, 13:00	2004-10-14 13:00:37	120	5	0
Task: "Hypersensitve change tracking"	alex	In tasks, even when I didn't change a description, the history recorded that I did. Added too much info to history.	2004-10-14 13:02:52	17	5	0
Update: "Get rid of expand,collapse"	alex	'alex' became a handler for this task on October 14th, 2004, 13:06	2004-10-14 13:06:49	78	5	0
Update: "Get rid of expand,collapse"	alex	Updated on October 14th, 2004, 13:09 by alex -Est. Time changed from '0' to '0.2'	2004-10-14 13:09:43	78	5	0
Update: "Get rid of expand,collapse"	alex	'alex' marked this task as completed on October 14th, 2004, 13:10	2004-10-14 13:10:00	78	5	0
Update: "Add task letters to table"	alex	'alex' became a handler for this task on October 14th, 2004, 13:11	2004-10-14 13:11:48	83	5	0
release	andrew	I'm releasing now. the Version number change is reflected in cvs root and base2. You guys might want to update your dev copies, though it doesn't really matter, it's just a version number. Should pass by freshmeat front page in a few hours. ~Andrew ------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-10 16:33:43.------ :Since the code has been updated, it would be good to put a new release on the download page and post an announcement on freshmeat and in our news section. I know it probably takes around an hour to do all the steps in a release, but releasing often keeps interest high and reassures people that we are still around. : :Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 15:01:52 -0700 :From: Andrew Parker gt; :To: 'Brendan O'Connor' gt;, : 'Todd Davies' gt; :Cc: 'Alex Cochran' gt; :Subject: RE: login error fixed - info below : :Wow, amazing save. This sounds like it was quite a mess. I would have :been clueless in the face of this error. I'm going to try installing a :new installation of Deme on the piece server today for two reasons: 1) I :think we will all need our own dev installations anyway so we don't :interfere with each other's development work. 2) I might learn why a CVS :update on dev2 isn't working. : :Also, I copied and hacked up your updatelinks.sh to make a version that :updates an entire group at once. The output is messy, but if you ever :need to do a big update of the symbolic links (ie bigger than just one :subdirectory in a group), then you can use that. It was really useful :for me this summer when I was creating a new item type. : :Again, Kudos to your Brendan. : :~Andrew	2004-10-14 13:14:14	259	0	0
Task: "Research CVS branching"	todd	Research CVS branching. Andrew said he'd do this at today's meeting (10/14).	2004-10-14 15:25:59	17	5	4
changed wording on download.php	todd	I changed some of the wording on the download page to reflect the fact that Pear DB does not have to be installed separately from Deme. Check the wording and change it if needed: http://www.groupspace.org/download.php.	2004-10-14 19:50:46	0	0	0
New Document: "Timesheets"	todd	I forgot to remind you all about timesheets. Here's the lowdown.	2004-10-14 20:09:24	0	124	0
Task: "Set up Sourceforge subdomain"	todd	Set up deme.stanford.edu. Does that give us space on Sourceforge? If not, point it to groupspace.org.	2004-10-15 10:48:28	17	5	8
changed wording in LICENSE.html	todd	I updated the first sentence of our Affero license in base2/code/LICENSE.html, to reflect the name Deme, tie it to the old name POD, and extend the copyright to 2003-2004. Is there any other instance of the license that needs changing?	2004-10-15 10:51:03	0	0	0
Update: "Research CVS branching"	andrew	'andrew' became a handler for this task on October 17th, 2004, 17:22	2004-10-17 17:22:30	325	5	0
Update: "Research CVS branching"	andrew	'andrew' marked this task as completed on October 17th, 2004, 17:22	2004-10-17 17:22:35	325	5	2
Regarding CVS	andrew	So, I read up on this topic on the CVS online manual. I've added a link to the manual on the DemeWiki frontpage for future reference, and I"ll include it here too: https://www.cvshome.org/docs/manual/cvs-1.11.17/cvs.html Anyway, branching seems to make sense for us, but I think we all need to read the manual to totally understand how to handle the branches (learning which tags and commands need to be used when updating just a branch, or when merging a branch with the trunk). I believe the idea is that we would leave the development portion of Deme as the "main trunk." The release portion (base2) would be updated much less often, so we could leave that as a branch. When we know the main trunk is stable, we can merge the branch to catch it up on the updates it missed, and while the main tree is unstable, any update commands on the base2 will not include the unstable changes (unless we explicitly request a merge with the unstable trunk). Everytime we merge the release branch with the main trunk, we should tag it at that moment with a tag along the lines of "deme-XXX" where XXX is the latest version number. Tagging is important because when you merge a branch once, the merge goes smoothly; however, if you merge a branch a second time, you need to tell CVS when the last merge occured because if you don't CVS will remerge the code that was merged the first time... Sounds confusing, eh? We could do the reverse and make the trunk be the releases and the branch by the development side of things. However, the syntax for updating a branch alone is a bit confusing (if I understand it correctly), and it looks like its easy to accidentially update the main trunk if you don't specify which branch you want to commit changes to when you do a "cvs commit" command. The manual uses fairly thick language, and their example are far from lucid, so I may have some of the facts wrong due to misinterpretation of the manual. I'll try reading it again in an hour once I've digested my initial stab at the reading. ~Andrew ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-17 17:22:35.------ : : :'andrew' marked this task as completed on October 17th, 2004, 17:22	2004-10-17 17:36:04	331	5	1
Update: "Set up Sourceforge subdomain"	brendan	'brendan' became a handler for this task on October 17th, 2004, 17:55	2004-10-17 17:55:03	328	5	0
Update: "Set up Sourceforge subdomain"	brendan	'brendan' marked this task as completed on October 17th, 2004, 17:55	2004-10-17 17:55:08	328	5	4
all done	brendan	I guess I applied a while ago for the sf.net space, and now we have it. deme.sourceforge.net now redirects to groupspace.org http://sf.net/projects/deme is our Sourceforge project page. Alex's "deme_pod" user has been added as a project developer there, so the account has rights to set up things and change settings, etc. If you create a sourceforge account and send me its name, I can also add you too as a "project admin". Since we don't use sourceforge resources yet, that shouldn't be a problem or too urgent either. ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-17 17:55:08.------ : : :'brendan' marked this task as completed on October 17th, 2004, 17:55	2004-10-17 18:00:14	334	5	3
SourceForge CVS	andrew	Now that we have sourceforge space, and since we've been talking about our CVS structure, we should probably look into setting up a sourceforge CVS for our project. It's not necessary for our own personal use; however, it might spur interest from other developers because a sourceforge CVS would give developers easier access to our code. ~Andrew ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-17 18:00:14.------ :I guess I applied a while ago for the sf.net space, and now we have it. : :deme.sourceforge.net now redirects to groupspace.org : :http://sf.net/projects/deme is our Sourceforge project page. : :Alex's "deme_pod" user has been added as a project developer there, so the account has rights to set up things and change settings, etc. If you create a sourceforge account and send me its name, I can also add you too as a "project admin". Since we don't use sourceforge resources yet, that shouldn't be a problem or too urgent either. : : : :------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-17 17:55:08.------ :: :: ::'brendan' marked this task as completed on October 17th, 2004, 17:55	2004-10-17 19:59:37	335	5	1
cool	brendan	cool, thanks for the update. that sounds like a useful system for us. ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-17 17:36:04.------ :So, I read up on this topic on the CVS online manual. I've added a link to the manual on the DemeWiki frontpage for future reference, and I"ll include it here too: https://www.cvshome.org/docs/manual/cvs-1.11.17/cvs.html : :Anyway, branching seems to make sense for us, but I think we all need to read the manual to totally understand how to handle the branches (learning which tags and commands need to be used when updating just a branch, or when merging a branch with the trunk). I believe the idea is that we would leave the development portion of Deme as the "main trunk." The release portion (base2) would be updated much less often, so we could leave that as a branch. When we know the main trunk is stable, we can merge the branch to catch it up on the updates it missed, and while the main tree is unstable, any update commands on the base2 will not include the unstable changes (unless we explicitly request a merge with the unstable trunk). Everytime we merge the release branch with the main trunk, we should tag it at that moment with a tag along the lines of "deme-XXX" where XXX is the latest version number. Tagging is important because when you merge a branch once, the merge goes smoothly; however, if you merge a branch a second time, you need to tell CVS when the last merge occured because if you don't CVS will remerge the code that was merged the first time... Sounds confusing, eh? : :We could do the reverse and make the trunk be the releases and the branch by the development side of things. However, the syntax for updating a branch alone is a bit confusing (if I understand it correctly), and it looks like its easy to accidentially update the main trunk if you don't specify which branch you want to commit changes to when you do a "cvs commit" command. : :The manual uses fairly thick language, and their example are far from lucid, so I may have some of the facts wrong due to misinterpretation of the manual. I'll try reading it again in an hour once I've digested my initial stab at the reading. : :~Andrew : : : :------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-17 17:22:35.------ :: :: ::'andrew' marked this task as completed on October 17th, 2004, 17:22	2004-10-17 21:06:49	332	5	0
password change	brendan	root has had its password changed but I realized our password for mysql would be bad to use. it's stored and used less securely than the root password, so it shouldn't give a hint to what the root password is. let's just wait till thurs. for the new mysql password. We should also start using ssl via https://piece/admin for phpMyAdmin access, for password submission security.	2004-10-17 21:15:09	0	0	1
phasing away dev2	brendan	we should kill off dev2 soon. As a first step I shut off the poll closing cronjob in piece-cron, whose error email every minute has given me several thousand messages on my piece inbox.	2004-10-17 21:58:06	0	0	2
SSL for phpmyadmin	brendan	ok, i just put in a hack so http://piece/admin redirects to an SSL-secured version (our apache server fully supports https, is configured for the same webroot as piece.stanford.edu). the hack will break if our server's https support stops some time. ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-17 21:15:09.------ :root has had its password changed : :but I realized our password for mysql would be bad to use. it's stored and used less securely than the root password, so it shouldn't give a hint to what the root password is. let's just wait till thurs. for the new mysql password. : :We should also start using ssl via https://piece/admin for phpMyAdmin access, for password submission security.	2004-10-17 22:05:10	338	0	0
errors?	andrew	Why was it generating an error? Is dev2 not functioning correctly? It might just need to DB files recently added. Did you try a cvs update? ~Andrew ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-17 21:58:06.------ :we should kill off dev2 soon. As a first step I shut off the poll closing cronjob in piece-cron, whose error email every minute has given me several thousand messages on my piece inbox.	2004-10-17 23:43:48	339	0	1
per-group changes?	brendan	i think updatelinks.sh needed to be run again after another cvs update..? ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-17 23:43:48.------ :Why was it generating an error? Is dev2 not functioning correctly? It might just need to DB files recently added. Did you try a cvs update? :~Andrew : :------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-17 21:58:06.------ ::we should kill off dev2 soon. As a first step I shut off the poll closing cronjob in piece-cron, whose error email every minute has given me several thousand messages on my piece inbox.	2004-10-17 23:45:35	341	0	0
Update: "Piece server backup cleaning script"	andrew	'andrew' became a handler for this task on October 19th, 2004, 00:16	2004-10-19 00:16:31	92	5	0
question about stopping operations	andrew	Hey guys, I have a quick Linux question. I was taught in CS107 that when you accidentially do some task that is taking forever on the command line, like grep in too wide of a search space, you should hit ctrl+z to stop the task. However, I su'ed into root just recently and used ctrl+z to stop a few tasks that I shouldn't have run. When I typed "exit" to drop out of the root login a line came up saying "there are stopped processes" (or something like that). Am I orphaning memory by stopping processes without officially "killing" them? Do I need to get a list of processes and manually kill them after stopping them to keep the server running optimally? What do you guys do when you want to drop out of a process? ~Andrew	2004-10-19 00:50:14	0	0	1
jobs and kill	brendan	$ jobs ##lists all suspended or backgrounded processes for your current shell [1] big-bad-program $ kill %1 ## ...if that doesn't work... $ kill -9 %1 the "%1" notation is just shorthand for the actual process number. ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-19 00:50:14.------ :Hey guys, :I have a quick Linux question. I was taught in CS107 that when you accidentially do some task that is taking forever on the command line, like grep in too wide of a search space, you should hit ctrl+z to stop the task. However, I su'ed into root just recently and used ctrl+z to stop a few tasks that I shouldn't have run. When I typed "exit" to drop out of the root login a line came up saying "there are stopped processes" (or something like that). Am I orphaning memory by stopping processes without officially "killing" them? Do I need to get a list of processes and manually kill them after stopping them to keep the server running optimally? What do you guys do when you want to drop out of a process? : :~Andrew	2004-10-19 01:32:53	344	0	0
Task: "rework groupnames"	brendan	Group shortnames will be reworked * will be legal DNS names (for a subdomain.gs.o format). Restricted to a-z, A-Z, 0-9, - and NOTHING else. * allow optional user specification of shortname, with explanation of its importance (it shows up in all your emails and urls!) * shortnames should be changeable in the future. The code should reference groups by group id, not by group shortname. * rework base2 groupnames to use dashes instead of underscores. (ick) These changes are necessary for the email system with subdomain group naming; they also make possible subdomain group naming for web access too.	2004-10-20 02:28:57	17	5	2
Update: "rework groupnames"	brendan	'brendan' became a handler for this task on October 20th, 2004, 02:29	2004-10-20 02:29:12	346	5	0
hyperlinking regex	brendan	I just randomly saw this regex for magically hyperlinking links: FP 13-Oct-2004 12:58 just my 2cent tips for auto-linking url in text - without "href=" defined!, if you need, modify it. - it should work for any type url , modify it for specific protocol. - just remove " //WRAPPED// ", so its became one line more 2cent tips at http://sysadmin.eu.org/?blog_cat=code $result = preg_replace("/((http|ftp)+(s)?:(\\/\\/)([\\w]+(.[\\w]+)) //WRAPPED// ([\\w\\-\\.,@?^=%&:;\\/~\\+#]*[\\w\\-\\@?^=%&:;\\/~\\+#])?)/i", "\\\\0", $text); ?> ....from http://us2.php.net/manual/en/function.preg-replace.php	2004-10-20 02:50:50	0	0	0
Task: "deme-announce mailing list"	brendan	We need to set up an announcement list, based on the info from interest-form.php. Currently it's all stored in db pod_project, table "interest". we have 22 interested people there. should we just use a sourceforge list? deme-announce@lists.sourceforge.net I set up a pod-announce before, it's pretty easy. disadvantage: not the easiest self-subscription system. we could set up our own mailing list software (e.g. mailman, phplist) but that will take probably several hours of work. maybe i should do it to learn how popular mailing list systems work. And we then get deme-announce@groupspace.org or maybe deme-announce@lists.groupspace.org. We can then send out feature release announcements via deme-announce.	2004-10-20 11:32:22	17	5	1
clean policy: www or not?	brendan	i know this sounds nitpicky. But we might as well have a clean policy for writing links. do we want http://groupspace.org or http://www.groupspace.org I propose the first. "www"'s are superfluous these days, except that it's somewhat nicer to write"www.groupspace.org" instead of "http://groupspace.org". if you think "groupspace.org" doesn't cut it. Both of course should continue to be supported.	2004-10-20 11:42:31	0	0	7
btw, piece -> gs.o redirect	brendan	this issue came up because i changed the top index.php to redirect links from piece.stanford.edu/pod -> groupspace.org. The old piece links around on the net should start going away. ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-20 11:42:31.------ :i know this sounds nitpicky. But we might as well have a clean policy for writing links. do we want : :http://groupspace.org : :or : :http://www.groupspace.org : :I propose the first. "www"'s are superfluous these days, except that it's somewhat nicer to write"www.groupspace.org" instead of "http://groupspace.org". if you think "groupspace.org" doesn't cut it. : :Both of course should continue to be supported.	2004-10-20 11:44:14	350	0	3
even further	andrew	Instead of waiting for the old links to go away, can't we include a line in our apace config to redirect all requests for http://piece.stanford.edu/pod/(...) to http://www.groupspace.org/(...) where the parentheses are a group in some rudamentry regular expression. Then all links that reference us as piece.stanford.edu will at least redirect to the correct place. I'm I assuming too much of the capibilities of apache? Perhaps rather than asking I should just figure it out myself. I'll follow up on this one. ~Andrew ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-20 11:44:14.------ :this issue came up because i changed the top index.php to redirect links from piece.stanford.edu/pod -> groupspace.org. The old piece links around on the net should start going away. : :------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-20 11:42:31.------ ::i know this sounds nitpicky. But we might as well have a clean policy for writing links. do we want :: ::http://groupspace.org :: ::or :: ::http://www.groupspace.org :: ::I propose the first. "www"'s are superfluous these days, except that it's somewhat nicer to write"www.groupspace.org" instead of "http://groupspace.org". if you think "groupspace.org" doesn't cut it. :: ::Both of course should continue to be supported.	2004-10-20 12:08:28	351	0	2
doing that for top	brendan	that's what it's doing for /index.php (though i used php not apache config to do it). yeah, i'm pretty sure apache can do all that. but I think redirecting all deep links isn't quite as necessary, but go for it if you want. I was grepping through logs to see what google searches gave our homepage, and noticed that google still has the piece url. we're #7 or so on a search for "deliberation". i was saying, now that the redirecting with a "Permanently Moved" header is there, search engines at least should start updating their url's, and when humans post the link, it'll always be gs.o in the url bar. ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-20 12:08:28.------ :Instead of waiting for the old links to go away, can't we include a line in our apace config to redirect all requests for http://piece.stanford.edu/pod/(...) to http://www.groupspace.org/(...) where the parentheses are a group in some rudamentry regular expression. Then all links that reference us as piece.stanford.edu will at least redirect to the correct place. I'm I assuming too much of the capibilities of apache? Perhaps rather than asking I should just figure it out myself. I'll follow up on this one. : :~Andrew : :------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-20 11:44:14.------ ::this issue came up because i changed the top index.php to redirect links from piece.stanford.edu/pod -> groupspace.org. The old piece links around on the net should start going away. :: ::------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-20 11:42:31.------ :::i know this sounds nitpicky. But we might as well have a clean policy for writing links. do we want ::: :::http://groupspace.org ::: :::or ::: :::http://www.groupspace.org ::: :::I propose the first. "www"'s are superfluous these days, except that it's somewhat nicer to write"www.groupspace.org" instead of "http://groupspace.org". if you think "groupspace.org" doesn't cut it. ::: :::Both of course should continue to be supported.	2004-10-20 12:59:36	352	0	1
Actually...	todd	I kind of like the www version for now, for two reasons: (1) most users are more familiar with www URLs, and (2) www.groupspace.org provides a nice placeholder for subdomains, where the subdomains would be, e.g. http://demeteam.groupspace.org. I agree that both should be supported. Also, if nixing www is a widespread trend, I could go for that - I just haven't seen it that broadly yet. ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-20 11:42:31.------ :i know this sounds nitpicky. But we might as well have a clean policy for writing links. do we want : :http://groupspace.org : :or : :http://www.groupspace.org : :I propose the first. "www"'s are superfluous these days, except that it's somewhat nicer to write"www.groupspace.org" instead of "http://groupspace.org". if you think "groupspace.org" doesn't cut it. : :Both of course should continue to be supported.	2004-10-21 00:48:23	350	0	2
Re: doing that for top	todd	------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-20 12:59:36.------ :that's what it's doing for /index.php (though i used php not apache config to do it). yeah, i'm pretty sure apache can do all that. but I think redirecting all deep links isn't quite as necessary, but go for it if you want. I was grepping through logs to see what google searches gave our homepage, and noticed that google still has the piece url. we're #7 or so on a search for "deliberation". Number 6 now! Pretty impressive. Also we are three of the top four sites for "deme" - only sponsored link is "Meet Sexy Local Singles", maybe b/c we are on Freshmeat.net :) :i was saying, now that the redirecting with a "Permanently Moved" header is there, search engines at least should start updating their url's, and when humans post the link, it'll always be gs.o in the url bar. Yeah, that's good. Might this raise our rank? Status conscious Todd : :------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-20 12:08:28.------ ::Instead of waiting for the old links to go away, can't we include a line in our apace config to redirect all requests for http://piece.stanford.edu/pod/(...) to http://www.groupspace.org/(...) where the parentheses are a group in some rudamentry regular expression. Then all links that reference us as piece.stanford.edu will at least redirect to the correct place. I'm I assuming too much of the capibilities of apache? Perhaps rather than asking I should just figure it out myself. I'll follow up on this one. :: ::~Andrew :: ::------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-20 11:44:14.------ :::this issue came up because i changed the top index.php to redirect links from piece.stanford.edu/pod -> groupspace.org. The old piece links around on the net should start going away. ::: :::------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-20 11:42:31.------ ::::i know this sounds nitpicky. But we might as well have a clean policy for writing links. do we want :::: ::::http://groupspace.org :::: ::::or :::: ::::http://www.groupspace.org :::: ::::I propose the first. "www"'s are superfluous these days, except that it's somewhat nicer to write"www.groupspace.org" instead of "http://groupspace.org". if you think "groupspace.org" doesn't cut it. :::: ::::Both of course should continue to be supported.	2004-10-21 00:53:31	353	0	0
Task: "Itemref updates to task"	todd	When comments are auto-generated on a task (updates), the item reference in the comment should point to the task. Right now it points to the project, so you can't find the task to which the update refers except by searching for the name of the task.	2004-10-21 00:57:57	17	5	0
Re: all done	todd	Shouldn't deme.sourceforge.net point to our Sourceforge page, with a link from there to Groupspace? I'm figuring eventually the Sourceforge page would be a neutral place to put code, or at least a link, since we don't want to identify Deme exclusively with Groupspace.org. Incidentally, I kind of prefer Sourceforge as a home to Freshmeat b/c the latter could offend our vegetarian friends. What are the main differences between SF and FM? ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-17 18:00:14.------ :I guess I applied a while ago for the sf.net space, and now we have it. : :deme.sourceforge.net now redirects to groupspace.org : :http://sf.net/projects/deme is our Sourceforge project page. : :Alex's "deme_pod" user has been added as a project developer there, so the account has rights to set up things and change settings, etc. If you create a sourceforge account and send me its name, I can also add you too as a "project admin". Since we don't use sourceforge resources yet, that shouldn't be a problem or too urgent either. : : : :------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-17 17:55:08.------ :: :: ::'brendan' marked this task as completed on October 17th, 2004, 17:55	2004-10-21 01:05:24	335	5	0
Coolio!! (nm)	todd	------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-20 02:28:57.------ :Group shortnames will be reworked : :* will be legal DNS names (for a subdomain.gs.o format). Restricted to a-z, A-Z, 0-9, - and NOTHING else. :* allow optional user specification of shortname, with explanation of its importance (it shows up in all your emails and urls!) :* shortnames should be changeable in the future. The code should reference groups by group id, not by group shortname. :* rework base2 groupnames to use dashes instead of underscores. (ick) : :These changes are necessary for the email system with subdomain group naming; they also make possible subdomain group naming for web access too.	2004-10-21 01:07:33	346	5	0
I like this (nm)	todd	------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-17 19:59:37.------ :Now that we have sourceforge space, and since we've been talking about our CVS structure, we should probably look into setting up a sourceforge CVS for our project. It's not necessary for our own personal use; however, it might spur interest from other developers because a sourceforge CVS would give developers easier access to our code. : :~Andrew : :------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-17 18:00:14.------ ::I guess I applied a while ago for the sf.net space, and now we have it. :: ::deme.sourceforge.net now redirects to groupspace.org :: ::http://sf.net/projects/deme is our Sourceforge project page. :: ::Alex's "deme_pod" user has been added as a project developer there, so the account has rights to set up things and change settings, etc. If you create a sourceforge account and send me its name, I can also add you too as a "project admin". Since we don't use sourceforge resources yet, that shouldn't be a problem or too urgent either. :: :: :: ::------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-17 17:55:08.------ ::: ::: :::'brendan' marked this task as completed on October 17th, 2004, 17:55	2004-10-21 01:08:59	336	5	0
Re: Task: "deme-announce mailing list"	todd	I'd say if you think it's worth it then set up the list on Groupspace.org. Stanford Majordomo is another possibility and has a nice interface for admin. ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-20 11:32:22.------ :We need to set up an announcement list, based on the info from interest-form.php. Currently it's all stored in db pod_project, table "interest". we have 22 interested people there. : :should we just use a sourceforge list? deme-announce@lists.sourceforge.net I set up a pod-announce before, it's pretty easy. disadvantage: not the easiest self-subscription system. : :we could set up our own mailing list software (e.g. mailman, phplist) but that will take probably several hours of work. maybe i should do it to learn how popular mailing list systems work. And we then get deme-announce@groupspace.org or maybe deme-announce@lists.groupspace.org. : :We can then send out feature release announcements via deme-announce.	2004-10-21 01:11:50	349	5	0
Update: "Set up Sourceforge subdomain"	todd	Updated on October 21st, 2004, 01:13 by todd -Description changed from 'Set up deme.stanford.edu. Does that give us space on Sourceforge? If not, point it to groupspace.org.' to 'Set up deme.sourceforge.org. Does that give us space on Sourceforge? If not, point it to groupspace.org.'	2004-10-21 01:13:19	328	5	0
Update: "Set up Sourceforge subdomain"	todd	Updated on October 21st, 2004, 01:14 by todd -Description changed from 'Set up deme.sourceforge.org. Does that give us space on Sourceforge? If not, point it to groupspace.org.' to 'Set up deme.sourceforge.net. Does that give us space on Sourceforge? If not, point it to groupspace.org.'	2004-10-21 01:14:59	328	5	0
Re: Actually...	brendan	:(2) www.groupspace.org provides a nice placeholder for subdomains, where the subdomains would be, e.g. http://demeteam.groupspace.org. what's the benefit of a "placeholder"? I'd argue that using gs.o is better than www.gs.o because you know that a subdomain is underneath the main site.	2004-10-21 03:01:29	354	0	1
Re: Re: Actually...	todd	It probably doesn't matter that much either way, but the uniformity of *.gs.o seemed to me like it would be less confusing. I don't have strong views on this at all. ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-21 03:01:29.------ : ::(2) www.groupspace.org provides a nice placeholder for subdomains, where the subdomains would be, e.g. http://demeteam.groupspace.org. : :what's the benefit of a "placeholder"? I'd argue that using gs.o is better than www.gs.o because you know that a subdomain is underneath the main site.	2004-10-21 09:25:45	363	0	0
Where's wiki data	andrew	Hi all, I think I've got the backup system cleanup working. However, I realized that we haven't been backing up the mysql data. It's backing up that data now (whew...), but it made me realize another potential problem: is the wiki data getting backed up? I couldn't figure out where its stored. I assumed it would be in /var/www/cgi-bin/ but I couldn't find it... Anyone know? Currently we back up: /etc /home /var/www /var/lib <---- this one is a new addition that now covers mysql data. Any other backup directory suggestions? ~Andrew	2004-10-21 11:52:58	0	0	1
centralize filesys more	brendan	looks good. I moved the wiki stuff into /var/www/moin to help centralize things. (it used to be in a default place in /usr/share which is bad to put such data.) we can always reconfigure filesystem locations to make it more organized, instead of trying to configure the backup script to match a scattershot data organization. ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-21 11:52:58.------ :Hi all, I think I've got the backup system cleanup working. However, I realized that we haven't been backing up the mysql data. It's backing up that data now (whew...), but it made me realize another potential problem: is the wiki data getting backed up? I couldn't figure out where its stored. I assumed it would be in /var/www/cgi-bin/ but I couldn't find it... Anyone know? : :Currently we back up: :/etc :/home :/var/www :/var/lib <---- this one is a new addition that now covers mysql data. : : :Any other backup directory suggestions? : :~Andrew	2004-10-21 13:07:52	365	0	0
Re: Update: "Task lettering problem"	todd	Has this really been fixed? The new release still seems to be assigning task letters in the old way. ------ alex wrote on: 2004-10-09 15:42:07.------ : : :'alex' completed this task on October 9th, 2004, 15:42	2004-10-22 13:49:45	248	5	2
Task: "favicon for gs.o"	brendan	We should make a favicon for groupspace.org. They are the little 16x16 icons that appear in the bookmarks and in the url bar of some webbrowsers, for the website. search for "favicon.ico" for more information. I made a crappy solid color one for now, because firefox kept trying to get the icon and it was clogging up the error_log, which I like to watch while debugging. http://www.favicon.co.uk/ is a nice little favicon editing program.	2004-10-23 13:34:32	17	5	2
Re: Re: Update: "Task lettering problem"	andrew	As far as I can tell from this group it seems like the letters are rolling over properly now. I didn't make this fix, but note how the first time the last two letter of a task were az, the next task was baa. Clearly this action is incorrect (it should be ba). However, the last time that az rolled around was in "baz" and the next appropriate lettering is "bba" which is what it did... so it seems correct... ~Andrew ------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-22 13:49:45.------ :Has this really been fixed? The new release still seems to be assigning task letters in the old way. : :------ alex wrote on: 2004-10-09 15:42:07.------ :: :: ::'alex' completed this task on October 9th, 2004, 15:42	2004-10-23 21:53:35	367	5	1
Task: "popup blocker detection"	andrew	I went to a Yahoo movie clip site today and my google toolbar blocked the media player popup that was supposed to be generated when the page loaded. Instead of loading the page properly with the blocked popup, the page that I tried to load reported the following: ~~~~~~ The LAUNCH Media Player did not open. You may have a pop-up blocker installed that is blocking the player from opening. Add LAUNCH to your "DO NOT BLOCK" list to prevent this from happening again. Click here to re-launch the LAUNCH Music Video player. ~~~~~~~ I think we should include similar code in Deme to detect if our popups do not properly load. Had a few problems with Deme popups being blocked over the summer. It was simple to fix this problem by adjusting my popup blocking settings accordingly; however, providing an error message when a popup is blocked would be pretty useful.	2004-10-23 22:02:06	17	5	1
Link: "History of social software"	todd	From an interesting blog "Life With Alacrity".	2004-10-24 18:04:22	0	131	0
Re: Task: "favicon for gs.o"	todd	I agree - designs, anyone? I'd also like to have a name for our technique of loading items and comments across frames when an item or comment reference is clicked. ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-23 13:34:32.------ :We should make a favicon for groupspace.org. They are the little 16x16 icons that appear in the bookmarks and in the url bar of some webbrowsers, for the website. search for "favicon.ico" for more information. : :I made a crappy solid color one for now, because firefox kept trying to get the icon and it was clogging up the error_log, which I like to watch while debugging. http://www.favicon.co.uk/ is a nice little favicon editing program.	2004-10-24 21:33:27	368	5	1
You're probably right. (nm)	todd	------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-23 21:53:35.------ :As far as I can tell from this group it seems like the letters are rolling over properly now. I didn't make this fix, but note how the first time the last two letter of a task were az, the next task was baa. Clearly this action is incorrect (it should be ba). However, the last time that az rolled around was in "baz" and the next appropriate lettering is "bba" which is what it did... so it seems correct... :~Andrew : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-22 13:49:45.------ ::Has this really been fixed? The new release still seems to be assigning task letters in the old way. :: ::------ alex wrote on: 2004-10-09 15:42:07.------ ::: ::: :::'alex' completed this task on October 9th, 2004, 15:42	2004-10-24 21:35:29	369	5	0
Definitely - good task (nm)	todd	------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-23 22:02:06.------ :I went to a Yahoo movie clip site today and my google toolbar blocked the media player popup that was supposed to be generated when the page loaded. Instead of loading the page properly with the blocked popup, the page that I tried to load reported the following: :~~~~~~ :The LAUNCH Media Player did not open. You may have a pop-up blocker installed that is blocking the player from opening. Add LAUNCH to your "DO NOT BLOCK" list to prevent this from happening again. : : : :Click here to re-launch the LAUNCH Music Video player. :~~~~~~~ :I think we should include similar code in Deme to detect if our popups do not properly load. Had a few problems with Deme popups being blocked over the summer. It was simple to fix this problem by adjusting my popup blocking settings accordingly; however, providing an error message when a popup is blocked would be pretty useful. : :	2004-10-24 21:37:01	370	5	0
Colors	todd	I like the red, green, and blue colors in Andrew's design for the Groupspace.org homepage, so a favicon with those colors in it might be appropriate. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-24 21:33:27.------ :I agree - designs, anyone? : :I'd also like to have a name for our technique of loading items and comments across frames when an item or comment reference is clicked. : :------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-23 13:34:32.------ ::We should make a favicon for groupspace.org. They are the little 16x16 icons that appear in the bookmarks and in the url bar of some webbrowsers, for the website. search for "favicon.ico" for more information. :: ::I made a crappy solid color one for now, because firefox kept trying to get the icon and it was clogging up the error_log, which I like to watch while debugging. http://www.favicon.co.uk/ is a nice little favicon editing program.	2004-10-24 21:39:00	372	5	0
Task: "ability to edit e-mail subj line"	andrew	When an automated e-mail is fired off from Deme, it automatically uses the groupname in the e-mail subject line. This text should be customizable in the group ownerpref.php area.	2004-10-24 23:45:46	17	5	0
futuristic web platform possibility	brendan	Mozilla's user interface is built with their own custom language called XUL, involving XML and javascript. XUL can actually be used to create mozilla-only web applications with a substantially richer widget set than the traditional html/javascript variety. These web apps could be run remotely (like all current web apps are), or remotely installed then updated (as a mozilla extension.) XUL is an interesting long-term possibility for a more powerful, or desktop-y, Deme. This seems to be a good proof-of-concept application: http://www.faser.net/mab/ note this is much like internet explorer's ActiveX, except it's cross-platform, open-source, and supposedly easier to program. A cross-browser richer platform would be nice too. the w3c is making various committees and recommendations, but who knows how successful they'll be. ("XForms" is one of them I know...)	2004-10-25 17:09:19	0	0	2
Hardcoding Groupspace.org	andrew	I'm having trouble thinking of workarounds for hard-coding in groupspace.org into our code... Even if I make the domain name groupspace.org a variable in the conf file, that makes the unrealistic expectation that all our users will have their own personal domain name. Do we need to start two copies of the code to handle the groupspace-specific code and the generic code, or do we need to abandon users that do not have their own domain name? Or, do I (we) need to come up with more creative solutions to solve this problem optimally? ~Andrew	2004-10-25 23:16:12	0	0	6
two naming schemes?	brendan	how about we support two http url naming schemes for individual groups: (1) ..../demeinstalldir/groups/groupname/___.php "demeinstalldir" = "base2" in our case. Others would probably just call it "deme". (2) groupname.domain.org/____.php Which naming scheme the entire deme installation is using, should be controlled by allgroups.conf.php. Then creategroup.php can have php conditionals on that config variable. [open question: for naming scheme (2), should work with the metagroup have a subdomain? I'm thinking not.] For email support, we shouldn't try to second guess all the potential mailing schemes out there. We should require scheme (2). I think most mailing list systems require some sort of control over the domain, like lists.domain.org, which is less control than we'd require, but should be OK, esp. for an installation that has a fixed small number of groups that they can manually configure each subdomain themselves. Brendan ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-25 23:16:12.------ :I'm having trouble thinking of workarounds for hard-coding in groupspace.org into our code... Even if I make the domain name groupspace.org a variable in the conf file, that makes the unrealistic expectation that all our users will have their own personal domain name. Do we need to start two copies of the code to handle the groupspace-specific code and the generic code, or do we need to abandon users that do not have their own domain name? Or, do I (we) need to come up with more creative solutions to solve this problem optimally? : :~Andrew	2004-10-25 23:35:32	378	0	5
sophisticated user?	andrew	Sounds good. However, it seems that we are leaving this issue resting on the following presumption: a deme installation on another server with full e-mail support has a sophisticated, very-hands-on admin. I don't see any other way... but I just want to be clear. ~Andrew ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-25 23:35:32.------ :how about we support two http url naming schemes for individual groups: : :(1) ..../demeinstalldir/groups/groupname/___.php :"demeinstalldir" = "base2" in our case. Others would probably just call it "deme". : :(2) groupname.domain.org/____.php : :Which naming scheme the entire deme installation is using, should be controlled by allgroups.conf.php. Then creategroup.php can have php conditionals on that config variable. : :[open question: for naming scheme (2), should work with the metagroup have a subdomain? I'm thinking not.] : :For email support, we shouldn't try to second guess all the potential mailing schemes out there. We should require scheme (2). I think most mailing list systems require some sort of control over the domain, like lists.domain.org, which is less control than we'd require, but should be OK, esp. for an installation that has a fixed small number of groups that they can manually configure each subdomain themselves. : :Brendan : : :------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-25 23:16:12.------ ::I'm having trouble thinking of workarounds for hard-coding in groupspace.org into our code... Even if I make the domain name groupspace.org a variable in the conf file, that makes the unrealistic expectation that all our users will have their own personal domain name. Do we need to start two copies of the code to handle the groupspace-specific code and the generic code, or do we need to abandon users that do not have their own domain name? Or, do I (we) need to come up with more creative solutions to solve this problem optimally? :: ::~Andrew	2004-10-25 23:40:05	379	0	4
indeed	brendan	indeed. all the mailing list install instructions are a bit trickier than your run-of-the-mill php app install -- just untarring and creating a few mysql tables. You have to configure sendmail and other weird stuff anyways. brendan ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-25 23:40:05.------ :Sounds good. However, it seems that we are leaving this issue resting on the following presumption: a deme installation on another server with full e-mail support has a sophisticated, very-hands-on admin. I don't see any other way... but I just want to be clear. : :~Andrew : :------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-25 23:35:32.------ ::how about we support two http url naming schemes for individual groups: :: ::(1) ..../demeinstalldir/groups/groupname/___.php ::"demeinstalldir" = "base2" in our case. Others would probably just call it "deme". :: ::(2) groupname.domain.org/____.php :: ::Which naming scheme the entire deme installation is using, should be controlled by allgroups.conf.php. Then creategroup.php can have php conditionals on that config variable. :: ::[open question: for naming scheme (2), should work with the metagroup have a subdomain? I'm thinking not.] :: ::For email support, we shouldn't try to second guess all the potential mailing schemes out there. We should require scheme (2). I think most mailing list systems require some sort of control over the domain, like lists.domain.org, which is less control than we'd require, but should be OK, esp. for an installation that has a fixed small number of groups that they can manually configure each subdomain themselves. :: ::Brendan :: :: ::------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-25 23:16:12.------ :::I'm having trouble thinking of workarounds for hard-coding in groupspace.org into our code... Even if I make the domain name groupspace.org a variable in the conf file, that makes the unrealistic expectation that all our users will have their own personal domain name. Do we need to start two copies of the code to handle the groupspace-specific code and the generic code, or do we need to abandon users that do not have their own domain name? Or, do I (we) need to come up with more creative solutions to solve this problem optimally? ::: :::~Andrew	2004-10-25 23:48:10	380	0	3
Yeah, it's neat	todd	I looked at MAB. Anything Gecko-only seems unsuited to our project, though. I wish the W3 would get it together so we have a cross-platform option. ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-25 17:09:19.------ :Mozilla's user interface is built with their own custom language called XUL, involving XML and javascript. XUL can actually be used to create mozilla-only web applications with a substantially richer widget set than the traditional html/javascript variety. These web apps could be run remotely (like all current web apps are), or remotely installed then updated (as a mozilla extension.) XUL is an interesting long-term possibility for a more powerful, or desktop-y, Deme. : :This seems to be a good proof-of-concept application: http://www.faser.net/mab/ : :note this is much like internet explorer's ActiveX, except it's cross-platform, open-source, and supposedly easier to program. : :A cross-browser richer platform would be nice too. the w3c is making various committees and recommendations, but who knows how successful they'll be. ("XForms" is one of them I know...)	2004-10-26 13:55:20	377	0	1
Re: indeed	todd	Can we have a default version that insalls without email posting/subdirectories etc. but still works, with notes in the Readme on how to configure these features? ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-25 23:48:10.------ :indeed. all the mailing list install instructions are a bit trickier than your run-of-the-mill php app install -- just untarring and creating a few mysql tables. You have to configure sendmail and other weird stuff anyways. : :brendan : :------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-25 23:40:05.------ ::Sounds good. However, it seems that we are leaving this issue resting on the following presumption: a deme installation on another server with full e-mail support has a sophisticated, very-hands-on admin. I don't see any other way... but I just want to be clear. :: ::~Andrew :: ::------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-25 23:35:32.------ :::how about we support two http url naming schemes for individual groups: ::: :::(1) ..../demeinstalldir/groups/groupname/___.php :::"demeinstalldir" = "base2" in our case. Others would probably just call it "deme". ::: :::(2) groupname.domain.org/____.php ::: :::Which naming scheme the entire deme installation is using, should be controlled by allgroups.conf.php. Then creategroup.php can have php conditionals on that config variable. ::: :::[open question: for naming scheme (2), should work with the metagroup have a subdomain? I'm thinking not.] ::: :::For email support, we shouldn't try to second guess all the potential mailing schemes out there. We should require scheme (2). I think most mailing list systems require some sort of control over the domain, like lists.domain.org, which is less control than we'd require, but should be OK, esp. for an installation that has a fixed small number of groups that they can manually configure each subdomain themselves. ::: :::Brendan ::: ::: :::------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-25 23:16:12.------ ::::I'm having trouble thinking of workarounds for hard-coding in groupspace.org into our code... Even if I make the domain name groupspace.org a variable in the conf file, that makes the unrealistic expectation that all our users will have their own personal domain name. Do we need to start two copies of the code to handle the groupspace-specific code and the generic code, or do we need to abandon users that do not have their own domain name? Or, do I (we) need to come up with more creative solutions to solve this problem optimally? :::: ::::~Andrew	2004-10-26 13:57:48	381	0	2
Meant "subdomains", not "subdirectories" (nm)	todd	------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-26 13:57:48.------ :Can we have a default version that insalls without email posting/subdirectories etc. but still works, with notes in the Readme on how to configure these features? : :------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-25 23:48:10.------ ::indeed. all the mailing list install instructions are a bit trickier than your run-of-the-mill php app install -- just untarring and creating a few mysql tables. You have to configure sendmail and other weird stuff anyways. :: ::brendan :: ::------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-25 23:40:05.------ :::Sounds good. However, it seems that we are leaving this issue resting on the following presumption: a deme installation on another server with full e-mail support has a sophisticated, very-hands-on admin. I don't see any other way... but I just want to be clear. ::: :::~Andrew ::: :::------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-25 23:35:32.------ ::::how about we support two http url naming schemes for individual groups: :::: ::::(1) ..../demeinstalldir/groups/groupname/___.php ::::"demeinstalldir" = "base2" in our case. Others would probably just call it "deme". :::: ::::(2) groupname.domain.org/____.php :::: ::::Which naming scheme the entire deme installation is using, should be controlled by allgroups.conf.php. Then creategroup.php can have php conditionals on that config variable. :::: ::::[open question: for naming scheme (2), should work with the metagroup have a subdomain? I'm thinking not.] :::: ::::For email support, we shouldn't try to second guess all the potential mailing schemes out there. We should require scheme (2). I think most mailing list systems require some sort of control over the domain, like lists.domain.org, which is less control than we'd require, but should be OK, esp. for an installation that has a fixed small number of groups that they can manually configure each subdomain themselves. :::: ::::Brendan :::: :::: ::::------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-25 23:16:12.------ :::::I'm having trouble thinking of workarounds for hard-coding in groupspace.org into our code... Even if I make the domain name groupspace.org a variable in the conf file, that makes the unrealistic expectation that all our users will have their own personal domain name. Do we need to start two copies of the code to handle the groupspace-specific code and the generic code, or do we need to abandon users that do not have their own domain name? Or, do I (we) need to come up with more creative solutions to solve this problem optimally? ::::: :::::~Andrew	2004-10-26 14:10:41	383	0	0
Study question	todd	Hey, profs. I'm almost done studying JavaScript. The book (see table of contents at http://www.deitel.com/books/iw3HTP3/iw3htp3TOC.pdf) has 4 chapters on Microsoft Dynamic HTML (chapters 13-16). Does this look like important stuff for me to know?	2004-10-26 14:19:05	0	0	3
DHTML useful	andrew	I use microsoft's DHTML Dev Manual pages regularly, but every piece of code I get from there I make sure to test in mozilla. DHTML is tricky because it's really tough to tell what is strictly a M$ addition, and what is cross-browser complient. ~Andrew ------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-26 14:19:05.------ :Hey, profs. I'm almost done studying JavaScript. The book (see table of contents at http://www.deitel.com/books/iw3HTP3/iw3htp3TOC.pdf) has 4 chapters on Microsoft Dynamic HTML (chapters 13-16). Does this look like important stuff for me to know?	2004-10-26 15:48:23	385	0	2
yes	brendan	dhtml is really important for the weird way that we contort html into being desktop-app-like. But it might be wise to learn php and mysql first, then come back later. whatever. brendan ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-26 15:48:23.------ :I use microsoft's DHTML Dev Manual pages regularly, but every piece of code I get from there I make sure to test in mozilla. DHTML is tricky because it's really tough to tell what is strictly a M$ addition, and what is cross-browser complient. : :~Andrew : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-26 14:19:05.------ ::Hey, profs. I'm almost done studying JavaScript. The book (see table of contents at http://www.deitel.com/books/iw3HTP3/iw3htp3TOC.pdf) has 4 chapters on Microsoft Dynamic HTML (chapters 13-16). Does this look like important stuff for me to know?	2004-10-26 16:30:11	386	0	1
definitely	brendan	that seems like an obvious requirement. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-26 13:57:48.------ :Can we have a default version that insalls without email posting/subdirectories etc. but still works, with notes in the Readme on how to configure these features? : :------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-25 23:48:10.------ ::indeed. all the mailing list install instructions are a bit trickier than your run-of-the-mill php app install -- just untarring and creating a few mysql tables. You have to configure sendmail and other weird stuff anyways. :: ::brendan :: ::------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-25 23:40:05.------ :::Sounds good. However, it seems that we are leaving this issue resting on the following presumption: a deme installation on another server with full e-mail support has a sophisticated, very-hands-on admin. I don't see any other way... but I just want to be clear. ::: :::~Andrew ::: :::------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-25 23:35:32.------ ::::how about we support two http url naming schemes for individual groups: :::: ::::(1) ..../demeinstalldir/groups/groupname/___.php ::::"demeinstalldir" = "base2" in our case. Others would probably just call it "deme". :::: ::::(2) groupname.domain.org/____.php :::: ::::Which naming scheme the entire deme installation is using, should be controlled by allgroups.conf.php. Then creategroup.php can have php conditionals on that config variable. :::: ::::[open question: for naming scheme (2), should work with the metagroup have a subdomain? I'm thinking not.] :::: ::::For email support, we shouldn't try to second guess all the potential mailing schemes out there. We should require scheme (2). I think most mailing list systems require some sort of control over the domain, like lists.domain.org, which is less control than we'd require, but should be OK, esp. for an installation that has a fixed small number of groups that they can manually configure each subdomain themselves. :::: ::::Brendan :::: :::: ::::------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-25 23:16:12.------ :::::I'm having trouble thinking of workarounds for hard-coding in groupspace.org into our code... Even if I make the domain name groupspace.org a variable in the conf file, that makes the unrealistic expectation that all our users will have their own personal domain name. Do we need to start two copies of the code to handle the groupspace-specific code and the generic code, or do we need to abandon users that do not have their own domain name? Or, do I (we) need to come up with more creative solutions to solve this problem optimally? ::::: :::::~Andrew	2004-10-26 16:30:44	383	0	0
more useless platform envy	brendan	here's an interface quite directly relevant to what we're doing: http://www.willden.org/~shawn/xulwebmail/ [you can type anything for the password.] ------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-26 13:55:20.------ :I looked at MAB. Anything Gecko-only seems unsuited to our project, though. I wish the W3 would get it together so we have a cross-platform option. : :------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-25 17:09:19.------ ::Mozilla's user interface is built with their own custom language called XUL, involving XML and javascript. XUL can actually be used to create mozilla-only web applications with a substantially richer widget set than the traditional html/javascript variety. These web apps could be run remotely (like all current web apps are), or remotely installed then updated (as a mozilla extension.) XUL is an interesting long-term possibility for a more powerful, or desktop-y, Deme. :: ::This seems to be a good proof-of-concept application: http://www.faser.net/mab/ :: ::note this is much like internet explorer's ActiveX, except it's cross-platform, open-source, and supposedly easier to program. :: ::A cross-browser richer platform would be nice too. the w3c is making various committees and recommendations, but who knows how successful they'll be. ("XForms" is one of them I know...)	2004-10-26 16:31:59	382	0	0
Re: yes	todd	Hmmm, I think I'll plunge ahead in the order of the book's chapters, since the examples build on each other. I plan to do more in-depth study of PHP/MySQL, and the other topics, after I finish this book. At this point I'm trying to get a general overview.Thanks for the advice. ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-10-26 16:30:11.------ :dhtml is really important for the weird way that we contort html into being desktop-app-like. But it might be wise to learn php and mysql first, then come back later. whatever. : :brendan : :------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-26 15:48:23.------ ::I use microsoft's DHTML Dev Manual pages regularly, but every piece of code I get from there I make sure to test in mozilla. DHTML is tricky because it's really tough to tell what is strictly a M$ addition, and what is cross-browser complient. :: ::~Andrew :: ::------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-26 14:19:05.------ :::Hey, profs. I'm almost done studying JavaScript. The book (see table of contents at http://www.deitel.com/books/iw3HTP3/iw3htp3TOC.pdf) has 4 chapters on Microsoft Dynamic HTML (chapters 13-16). Does this look like important stuff for me to know?	2004-10-26 17:11:14	387	0	0
Emacs font	andrew	Hey, Did any of you all change the a global emacs font setting? The font that I view my code in changed when I went I went to write code today. It's much less readable than the normal font I used to have, so I'd like to change it back, but I'm having a lot of trouble figuring out how to do it. Furthermore, I'm not sure why it changed in the first place... Anyone got any clue? ~Andrew	2004-10-27 21:19:37	0	0	1
New Document: "Musings: Bots and Alters"	todd	Some thoughts on the productive and research uses of bots and "alters" in Deme.	2004-10-28 19:58:11	0	133	0
Another, more straightforward use	todd	I might also use an alteruser to post under a role I play in the group. For example, I could be both the facilitator and a participant, but post under different alters when I am in each role.	2004-10-28 20:01:06	0	134	0
Link: "Papers from Nonprofit IT symposium"	todd	These are the papers from the one-day, by-invitation-only (read "free food") symposium I attended in sf on Saturday on "IT Adoption by Nonprofits" (http://www.usfca.edu/inom/IT@Nonprofits/index.htm). They asked that I not share this with non-attendees, but I figure it's safe to do so with you guys. Still the link below is not public, so please don't pass it on. This is supposed to facilitate feedback to the authors from participants, so pass along to me any comments you have.	2004-10-28 22:15:22	0	135	0
download mirror	todd	I think it would be good to have a second download site, ideally one to which the person who does new releases has access. That would make me feel like were are less vulnerable to a catastrophic event in Chris Manning's lab. Candidate locations include Andrew's and Brendan's personal www space on AFS, but maybe we could set up a Deme AFS space?	2004-10-29 16:26:13	0	0	2
Link: "Summit Collaborative/Nonprofilt OSS Survey"	todd	Interesting .xls file report of a nonprofit open-source software survey (most popular tools) on this site for nonprofit services firm.	2004-11-02 11:08:58	0	136	0
Link: "DotOrgMedia "	todd	Interesting article on technology funding in nonprofit sector linked from this site.	2004-11-02 11:19:03	0	137	5
Odd behavior here	todd	When I click on this link in Moz 1.4/Linux, it opens to the whole current browser window, but only for this link (i.e. it fails to target just the frame). When I click on other links in link items, they load in the item viewer only. Does anyone else see this? I had this site opened in an adjacent window from which I copied the link when I posted it, but I have since used the other window to visit another site and I am still getting this behavior. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-02 11:19:03.------ :Interesting article on technology funding in nonprofit sector linked from this site.	2004-11-02 11:33:24	397	137	4
New Document: "Musings 2: Stances, Attitudes, and Traits"	todd	New thoughts (at least for me), born from experience. Comments welcome as always.	2004-11-02 13:32:33	0	138	0
confirm	andrew	I too am getting this odd behavior... I am at a loss regarding the cause, today (being that it's election day) is not a great time for me to look at it, but I'll track this bug later this week. BTW, my "odd behavior" confirmation is under IE 6.0 ~Andrew ------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-02 11:33:24.------ :When I click on this link in Moz 1.4/Linux, it opens to the whole current browser window, but only for this link (i.e. it fails to target just the frame). When I click on other links in link items, they load in the item viewer only. Does anyone else see this? I had this site opened in an adjacent window from which I copied the link when I posted it, but I have since used the other window to visit another site and I am still getting this behavior. : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-02 11:19:03.------ ::Interesting article on technology funding in nonprofit sector linked from this site.	2004-11-02 13:48:10	398	137	3
Link: "Publication idea: CHI 2005"	todd	I am thinking maybe we should put together a "design expo" paper for CHI 2005, which is in April in portland. If we did this, how many of you would be willing to contribute to the draft? These are longer papers (12-16 pages), and since it's CHI it's probably competitive, but I think it would be a good exercise. We could build on our white paper and work toward print publication in the process. I would support everyone to go if we got in. Would you want to go to CHI? Deadline is December 13. Details in link.	2004-11-02 14:16:20	0	139	0
? fault of autoupdater	brendan	This might be the automatic rpm updater screwing things up again. That's the only thing that could have changed things. It's only supposed to update for security updates, but from a quick look at /var/log/aptget-update it seems that the update server is getting new non-critical packages all the time. I've turned it off for now (/etc/cron.daily/aptget). The better, less lazy way to stay up to date is to pay attention to the (rare) security announcements on sulinux-announce@mail.sulinux.org and run apt-get update only when necessary. I'll start doing that; important security alerts seem to come out only once every few months or so. ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-10-27 21:19:37.------ :Hey, : :Did any of you all change the a global emacs font setting? The font that I view my code in changed when I went I went to write code today. It's much less readable than the normal font I used to have, so I'd like to change it back, but I'm having a lot of trouble figuring out how to do it. Furthermore, I'm not sure why it changed in the first place... Anyone got any clue? : :~Andrew	2004-11-02 16:54:54	391	0	0
frame buster code	brendan	the problem is that the website has javascript code that, if shown inside a frame, kills the frameset and loads itself as the main page. I think this code is popular because when people use frames they often forget to specify _top, so website authors who don't want their own pages to be accientally stuck inside a tiny little frame added the frame buster code. There's nothing we can do about this that I can think of, short of scrapping the open-inside-the-frame feature of our interface. The code on their page is: \tif (top != self) { \t top.location = location \t} ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-11-02 13:48:10.------ :I too am getting this odd behavior... I am at a loss regarding the cause, today (being that it's election day) is not a great time for me to look at it, but I'll track this bug later this week. BTW, my "odd behavior" confirmation is under IE 6.0 : :~Andrew : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-02 11:33:24.------ ::When I click on this link in Moz 1.4/Linux, it opens to the whole current browser window, but only for this link (i.e. it fails to target just the frame). When I click on other links in link items, they load in the item viewer only. Does anyone else see this? I had this site opened in an adjacent window from which I copied the link when I posted it, but I have since used the other window to visit another site and I am still getting this behavior. :: ::------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-02 11:19:03.------ :::Interesting article on technology funding in nonprofit sector linked from this site.	2004-11-02 17:03:57	400	137	2
Re: frame buster code	andrew	nice one. Cool find. I agree there's nothing we can do about that. ~Andrew ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-11-02 17:03:57.------ :the problem is that the website has javascript code that, if shown inside a frame, kills the frameset and loads itself as the main page. I think this code is popular because when people use frames they often forget to specify _top, so website authors who don't want their own pages to be accientally stuck inside a tiny little frame added the frame buster code. There's nothing we can do about this that I can think of, short of scrapping the open-inside-the-frame feature of our interface. : :The code on their page is: : :\tif (top != self) { :\t top.location = location :\t} : :------ andrew wrote on: 2004-11-02 13:48:10.------ ::I too am getting this odd behavior... I am at a loss regarding the cause, today (being that it's election day) is not a great time for me to look at it, but I'll track this bug later this week. BTW, my "odd behavior" confirmation is under IE 6.0 :: ::~Andrew :: ::------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-02 11:33:24.------ :::When I click on this link in Moz 1.4/Linux, it opens to the whole current browser window, but only for this link (i.e. it fails to target just the frame). When I click on other links in link items, they load in the item viewer only. Does anyone else see this? I had this site opened in an adjacent window from which I copied the link when I posted it, but I have since used the other window to visit another site and I am still getting this behavior. ::: :::------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-02 11:19:03.------ ::::Interesting article on technology funding in nonprofit sector linked from this site.	2004-11-02 17:16:16	403	137	0
Re: frame buster code	todd	Hmmm, interesting. Good detective work. I find it disturbing that JavaScript has this power. It seems somewhat at odds with a statement in my book: "Most Web browsers will only allow a script to access the window.location property of another window if the script is running on the same Web site as the page in the other window." (p. 405, Deitel, Deitel, and Goldberg 2004) I suppose there is no way to "private" location in the code? ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-11-02 17:03:57.------ :the problem is that the website has javascript code that, if shown inside a frame, kills the frameset and loads itself as the main page. I think this code is popular because when people use frames they often forget to specify _top, so website authors who don't want their own pages to be accientally stuck inside a tiny little frame added the frame buster code. There's nothing we can do about this that I can think of, short of scrapping the open-inside-the-frame feature of our interface. : :The code on their page is: : :\tif (top != self) { :\t top.location = location :\t} : :------ andrew wrote on: 2004-11-02 13:48:10.------ ::I too am getting this odd behavior... I am at a loss regarding the cause, today (being that it's election day) is not a great time for me to look at it, but I'll track this bug later this week. BTW, my "odd behavior" confirmation is under IE 6.0 :: ::~Andrew :: ::------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-02 11:33:24.------ :::When I click on this link in Moz 1.4/Linux, it opens to the whole current browser window, but only for this link (i.e. it fails to target just the frame). When I click on other links in link items, they load in the item viewer only. Does anyone else see this? I had this site opened in an adjacent window from which I copied the link when I posted it, but I have since used the other window to visit another site and I am still getting this behavior. ::: :::------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-02 11:19:03.------ ::::Interesting article on technology funding in nonprofit sector linked from this site.	2004-11-02 17:22:24	403	137	0
New Document: "Incoming mail processing steps"	brendan	Here's the outline of howto process an incoming mail i'll be working with. does this look OK to people? The only new issue i thought of is the spoofing one, which we can discuss later if need be.	2004-11-02 18:48:45	0	140	0
Outgoing mail	todd	We also need to redo outgoing email. Some changes I suggest: + Announcement messages for link items should include the link in the text of the email message. + Announcement messages for items for which a link is provided (e.g. documents, projects) should say "View and comment on it at:' instead of just "View it at:". + Formatting of surrounding text in email announcements of in-text comments should be redone to make it clearer exactly where the comment was placed. + Addressing that facilitates placement of responses in appropriate threads, as alluded to in this document. + Sender is poster instead of Deme notifier.	2004-11-03 10:40:19	0	141	0
Spoofing a big problem?	todd	Presumably groups can control this by not making their address public. My guess is actual group members would be unlikely to spoof each other, and the check you suggest may be adequate for now.	2004-11-03 10:43:47	0	142	0
Why is this a problem? (nm)	todd		2004-11-03 10:44:46	0	143	2
No to multiple addresses	todd	I don't see why we should support multiple addresses per member - that complicates things a lot and makes it harder to search for messages sent by a particular member.	2004-11-03 10:53:57	0	144	2
"To:" field	todd	I thought the plan was that "To:" is actually the thread code unless a global comment is being posted, e.g. To: marea-msgXX@groupname.groupspace.org. Cc would just show whatever other addresses the member posted to, if any. Issue then is adding cc option in post-via-web, which I think we should do so that web posting is not at a disadvantage. Of course, this means non-group-members will be getting email messages from the group even if it is a closed group, possibly with links to the group. Puts emphasis on need to authenticate attempts to log in, disclaimer text in message to non-member cc-ed users saying that links and posting to this list may not be available if they are not a member of the meeting area/group, and polite rejection of attempts by outsiders to post responses and/or new messages to the group/meeting area.	2004-11-03 11:03:03	0	145	2
Explain?	todd	What is X-Deme?	2004-11-03 11:03:58	0	146	3
Task: "Last-changed should reflect status updates"	todd	The "Last changed" field in a list of project tasks should reflect date on which *any* change has occurred in the task except perhaps when a task is deleted, e.g. handler picked it up, task marked completed.	2004-11-03 11:21:34	17	5	2
i mean display	brendan	This situation: To: marea@groupname,groupspace.org Cc: someone-else@asdf.com What I mean is, should we display information on the Deme interface that this particular message was sent not only to the group, but also cc'd to several individuals as well? This lets you know about group communication. mailing lists and usenet both support this. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-03 10:44:46.------ :	2004-11-03 12:22:23	409	143	1
extended email headers	brendan	That's just the format for custom email headers beyond the standard ones. rfc822 talks about them ("in section 4.7.4. "extension-field" of http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc822.html) here's an example: X-Sender: j2ulie@j2ulie.pobox.stanford.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 21:51:42 -0800 To: btbleaders@lists.Stanford.EDU, lorochat-0203@lists.Stanford.EDU, palomachat-0203@lists.Stanford.EDU, gavilanchat-0203@lists.Stanford.EDU, mirlochat-0203@lists.Stanford.EDU, toyon2004-chat@lists.Stanford.EDU, inigo_montoyon@lists.Stanford.EDU From: Julie Lein gt; Subject: Everything You Need to Vote Tomorrow! ------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-03 11:03:58.------ :What is X-Deme?	2004-11-03 12:29:56	412	146	0
new msg vs incoming msg	brendan	[sorry this document isn't very verbose. i just spent a while writing comments to outline the code i was going to write, then thought it would be good to post on the meeting area.] Remember there's an assymetry between the To: fields of incoming and outgoing mails. == Incoming mail == is written by the user on their mail client. To: -reply-to-msg42 ...the body of this incoming mail will become a new message, but msg_id will NOT be 42, but rather something higher. Let's say 60. == Outgoing mail == is written by deme. the only part from the user is the content portion of the email message body. The To: field is written by Deme; deme can also write any number of nice informational X-Deme-* headers. To: -reply-to-msg60 X-Deme-Msg-Id: 60 This will be the notification email for message 60 - it is NOT in reply to message 60, even though the To: line says so!! [see my other post for info on X-Deme-Msg-Id] Yes, this scheme is deceptive to people like us who have to deal with msg_id numbers, but from our discussions this scheme seems the most transparent way for us to get the proper posting address out there. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-03 11:03:03.------ :I thought the plan was that "To:" is actually the thread code unless a global comment is being posted, e.g. To: marea-msgXX@groupname.groupspace.org. Cc would just show whatever other addresses the member posted to, if any. Issue then is adding cc option in post-via-web, which I think we should do so that web posting is not at a disadvantage. Of course, this means non-group-members will be getting email messages from the group even if it is a closed group, possibly with links to the group. Puts emphasis on need to authenticate attempts to log in, disclaimer text in message to non-member cc-ed users saying that links and posting to this list may not be available if they are not a member of the meeting area/group, and polite rejection of attempts by outsiders to post responses and/or new messages to the group/meeting area.	2004-11-03 12:45:18	411	145	1
X-Deme is metainformation	brendan	let's take X-Deme-Msg-Id: 60 example from my post on incoming vs. outgoing mail. X-Deme-Msg-Id's value is Deme's internal msg_id for the message that's being notified about by this email. The X-Deme-Msg-Id will be ignored by user's email clients. However, a client programmed to do so can recognize it as useful metainformation: it tells which Deme message is being represented by this email. At least two uses. (1) at the very least, this will be helpful if the notification mail gets accidentally received again by Deme because -reply-to-msg60 is in the To: field -- then the deme mail input can just ignore it. The information in the To: field is not reliable if you could be looking at an incoming or an outgoing mail. X-Deme headers tell you definitively that the Deme wrote the message. There could even be a X-Deme-Written-By: WEB_INTERFACE ... or something like that. But there's definitely nothing to lose by including more accurate machine-readable metainformation via X-Deme-* headers. (2) long-term, if someone writes a Deme plugin for outlook or moz thunderbird or something, it can recognize and do things with this information. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-03 11:03:58.------ :What is X-Deme?	2004-11-03 12:50:55	412	146	1
Re: No to multiple addresses	brendan	This is a problem I see when I administer mailing lists at stanford: some people who have multiple aliases for email addresses will get signed up with one, but then their mail client sends emails with the From; address a different one, and they're not aware of this; then they get bounces and it's annoying. The idea was to allow a user to specify multiple addresses from which it's legal for them to post as. i agree though, this might be overkill. However, I do not think it solves the search problem very much because people can change their single email address all they want (and they must be allowed to do that since people lose email addresses all the time) The current way the identity of the author is anchored in Deme is via their username, not email address. this is a good thing because it is under the deme system's control and therefore won't change. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-03 10:53:57.------ :I don't see why we should support multiple addresses per member - that complicates things a lot and makes it harder to search for messages sent by a particular member.	2004-11-03 13:04:50	410	144	1
Task: "Highlight commentref for replies"	todd	Comment references in the item display should be highlighted yellow for the corresponding subject thread to which a comment selected in the discussion is a response. Perhaps only the phrase "1 reply" (or 2, or 3, etc.) should be yellow highlighted next to the subject line of the original comment.	2004-11-03 13:31:41	17	5	1
Update: "Highlight commentref for replies"	todd	Updated on November 3rd, 2004, 13:39 by todd -Description changed from 'Comment references in the item display should be highlighted yellow for the corresponding subject thread to which a comment selected in the discussion is a response. Perhaps only the phrase "1 reply" (or 2, or 3, etc.) should be yellow highlighted next to the subject line of the original comment. ' to 'Comment references in the item display should be highlighted yellow for the corresponding subject thread to which a comment selected in the discussion is a response. Perhaps only the phrase \\"1 reply\\" (or 2, or 3, etc.) should be yellow highlighted next to the subject line of the original comment. That could be played with. Actually, the commentref *is* highlighted if the comment reader header\\'s itemref is clicked. But if one first clicks on the itemref for the first comment in a thread, and then switches to a follow-up comment in the same thread (viz, with the same item reference), the comment reference gets unhighlighted and you have to click on the itemref in the comment reader header to get it to highlight again. When it does, it highlights to whole comment reference in yellow, which might be the way to go except that it is a little confusing when the subject of the response comment is different from that of the first comment. '	2004-11-03 13:39:07	419	5	0
Oh - yes, I think it should be displayed (nm)	todd	------ brendan wrote on: 2004-11-03 12:22:23.------ :This situation: : :To: marea@groupname,groupspace.org :Cc: someone-else@asdf.com : : :What I mean is, should we display information on the Deme interface that this particular message was sent not only to the group, but also cc'd to several individuals as well? This lets you know about group communication. mailing lists and usenet both support this. : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-03 10:44:46.------ ::	2004-11-03 13:40:32	414	143	0
Re: Re: No to multiple addresses	todd	------ brendan wrote on: 2004-11-03 13:04:50.------ :This is a problem I see when I administer mailing lists at stanford: some people who have multiple aliases for email addresses will get signed up with one, but then their mail client sends emails with the From; address a different one, and they're not aware of this; then they get bounces and it's annoying. The idea was to allow a user to specify multiple addresses from which it's legal for them to post as. I don't think it's worth trying to do this now. People who want to post via email should enter the email address into Deme they are going to be sending from. :i agree though, this might be overkill. However, I do not think it solves the search problem very much because people can change their single email address all they want (and they must be allowed to do that since people lose email addresses all the time) If people change their email address, at least the postings by them over some interval should all have the same address. They don't typically change all that often. But if people post via web sometimes and via email sometimes, it could be a real pain to have the mix of email addresses within a time interval. :The current way the identity of the author is anchored in Deme is via their username, not email address. this is a good thing because it is under the deme system's control and therefore won't change. Agreed. : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-03 10:53:57.------ ::I don't see why we should support multiple addresses per member - that complicates things a lot and makes it harder to search for messages sent by a particular member.	2004-11-03 13:45:53	418	144	0
Re: new msg vs incoming msg	todd	Okay, I think we are on the same page, except I was thinking the syntax of the to: address would not have the words "reply-to" in it, instead being just To: marea-msg42@groupname ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-11-03 12:45:18.------ :[sorry this document isn't very verbose. i just spent a while writing comments to outline the code i was going to write, then thought it would be good to post on the meeting area.] : :Remember there's an assymetry between the To: fields of incoming and outgoing mails. : :== Incoming mail == :is written by the user on their mail client. : :To: -reply-to-msg42 : :...the body of this incoming mail will become a new message, but msg_id will NOT be 42, but rather something higher. Let's say 60. : :== Outgoing mail == :is written by deme. the only part from the user is the content portion of the email message body. The To: field is written by Deme; deme can also write any number of nice informational X-Deme-* headers. : :To: -reply-to-msg60 :X-Deme-Msg-Id: 60 : :This will be the notification email for message 60 - it is NOT in reply to message 60, even though the To: line says so!! : :[see my other post for info on X-Deme-Msg-Id] : :Yes, this scheme is deceptive to people like us who have to deal with msg_id numbers, but from our discussions this scheme seems the most transparent way for us to get the proper posting address out there. : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-03 11:03:03.------ ::I thought the plan was that "To:" is actually the thread code unless a global comment is being posted, e.g. To: marea-msgXX@groupname.groupspace.org. Cc would just show whatever other addresses the member posted to, if any. Issue then is adding cc option in post-via-web, which I think we should do so that web posting is not at a disadvantage. Of course, this means non-group-members will be getting email messages from the group even if it is a closed group, possibly with links to the group. Puts emphasis on need to authenticate attempts to log in, disclaimer text in message to non-member cc-ed users saying that links and posting to this list may not be available if they are not a member of the meeting area/group, and polite rejection of attempts by outsiders to post responses and/or new messages to the group/meeting area.	2004-11-03 13:52:04	416	145	0
Okay, cool! (nm)	todd	------ brendan wrote on: 2004-11-03 12:50:55.------ :let's take X-Deme-Msg-Id: 60 example from my post on incoming vs. outgoing mail. X-Deme-Msg-Id's value is Deme's internal msg_id for the message that's being notified about by this email. : :The X-Deme-Msg-Id will be ignored by user's email clients. However, a client programmed to do so can recognize it as useful metainformation: it tells which Deme message is being represented by this email. At least two uses. : :(1) at the very least, this will be helpful if the notification mail gets accidentally received again by Deme because -reply-to-msg60 is in the To: field -- then the deme mail input can just ignore it. The information in the To: field is not reliable if you could be looking at an incoming or an outgoing mail. X-Deme headers tell you definitively that the Deme wrote the message. There could even be a X-Deme-Written-By: WEB_INTERFACE ... or something like that. : :But there's definitely nothing to lose by including more accurate machine-readable metainformation via X-Deme-* headers. : :(2) long-term, if someone writes a Deme plugin for outlook or moz thunderbird or something, it can recognize and do things with this information. : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-03 11:03:58.------ ::What is X-Deme?	2004-11-03 13:56:02	417	146	0
Link: "Yahoo! Groupware Links"	todd	We are one of only ten sites listed under Yahoo!'s category for "Groupware" (see link). See other cool sites here too - this is pretty heady company.	2004-11-03 14:41:21	0	149	0
Task: "Remove backslashes in email notifications"	todd	HTML character escapes like \\" should have the backslashes stripped off for the email version of item announcements.	2004-11-03 15:07:38	17	5	0
Task: "Frame buster buster"	todd	Write browser mods to not allow external JavaScript to access frame properties outside the internal minibrowser frame in which the external site is loaded, e.g. external site scripts that check if top = self and then resetting top.location if not would not be allowed. Mod/plugin would be offered to user to install on first running of Deme.	2004-11-03 16:37:31	17	5	0
Update: "Load announcement for viewed task"	alex	'alex' marked this task as completed on November 4th, 2004, 13:33	2004-11-04 13:33:10	75	5	1
Already done	alex	I'm just going through the task list and I noticed this task, loading the announcement for a viewed task, was already done. At least it seems that way. ------ alex wrote on: 2004-11-04 13:33:10.------ : : :'alex' marked this task as completed on November 4th, 2004, 13:33	2004-11-04 13:34:18	428	5	0
New Poll: "CHI or not?"	todd	We need to decide whether to submit to CHI's design expo (http://www.chi2005.org/cfp/designexpo.html). Deadline is Dec. 13, and we'd need to write 12-16 pages. Specify in your vote whether you would be willing to help write the paper, and if so what sections (see outline in link under "How to Submit").	2004-11-04 21:29:09	0	152	8
old meta-POD group link broken	todd	Be nice to have access to it again - this was Brendan's and my group from August 2003 to January 2004, listed on our Wiki home page: http://piece.stanford.edu/pod/meta-old. Could the move of Wikis have broken this, or is it just calling obsolete (pre-v0.1) code? ------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-18 11:20:51.------ :A link to our wiki.	2004-11-04 21:40:07	71	26	2
some delib?	andrew	I'm not sure how to vote here, could we talk about it a bit? I read over the outline/guidelines on the CHI site. I agree that this is very appropriate for our project, and the outline should make the paper fairly easy to write. Plus the publicity from presenting our project at CHI would be a great for generating additional interest in Deme. However, I hesitate because adding a deadline that falls 3 days after exams are finished to the schedule means that we will probably end up doing most of the work around deadweek and exams (scary). Furthermore, I don't feel that my writing skill is of "conference publication" caliber. What do other people think? ~Andrew ------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-04 21:29:09.------ :We need to decide whether to submit to CHI's design expo (http://www.chi2005.org/cfp/designexpo.html). Deadline is Dec. 13, and we'd need to write 12-16 pages. Specify in your vote whether you would be willing to help write the paper, and if so what sections (see outline in link under "How to Submit").	2004-11-04 21:41:51	430	152	5
could be wrong, but...	andrew	I'm pretty sure this is the PEAR DB problem... right? ------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-04 21:40:07.------ :Be nice to have access to it again - this was Brendan's and my group from August 2003 to January 2004, listed on our Wiki home page: http://piece.stanford.edu/pod/meta-old. Could the move of Wikis have broken this, or is it just calling obsolete (pre-v0.1) code? : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-18 11:20:51.------ ::A link to our wiki.	2004-11-04 21:47:52	431	26	1
yes it is	brendan	yes it's the pear problem again. same problem with base1/ also. ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-11-04 21:47:52.------ :I'm pretty sure this is the PEAR DB problem... right? : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-04 21:40:07.------ ::Be nice to have access to it again - this was Brendan's and my group from August 2003 to January 2004, listed on our Wiki home page: http://piece.stanford.edu/pod/meta-old. Could the move of Wikis have broken this, or is it just calling obsolete (pre-v0.1) code? :: ::------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-18 11:20:51.------ :::A link to our wiki.	2004-11-04 21:50:34	433	26	0
That would be too late	todd	If we do this we should write a draft much earlier, in the next few weeks. After that I'm willing to take the lead. I'll probably be leaving right after finals so would want to get it out by the end of the previous week. ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-11-04 21:41:51.------ :I'm not sure how to vote here, could we talk about it a bit? I read over the outline/guidelines on the CHI site. I agree that this is very appropriate for our project, and the outline should make the paper fairly easy to write. Plus the publicity from presenting our project at CHI would be a great for generating additional interest in Deme. However, I hesitate because adding a deadline that falls 3 days after exams are finished to the schedule means that we will probably end up doing most of the work around deadweek and exams (scary). Furthermore, I don't feel that my writing skill is of "conference publication" caliber. What do other people think? : :~Andrew : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-04 21:29:09.------ ::We need to decide whether to submit to CHI's design expo (http://www.chi2005.org/cfp/designexpo.html). Deadline is Dec. 13, and we'd need to write 12-16 pages. Specify in your vote whether you would be willing to help write the paper, and if so what sections (see outline in link under "How to Submit").	2004-11-04 21:53:41	432	152	0
Couple of links	todd	Discussing CHI review process (mostly for long papers at last year's conference in vienna): http://www.chiplace.org/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=272 From this year's CHI site: http://www.chi2005.org/cfp/introduction.html ------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-04 21:29:09.------ :We need to decide whether to submit to CHI's design expo (http://www.chi2005.org/cfp/designexpo.html). Deadline is Dec. 13, and we'd need to write 12-16 pages. Specify in your vote whether you would be willing to help write the paper, and if so what sections (see outline in link under "How to Submit").	2004-11-04 23:48:36	430	152	0
possible plan	todd	I've been thinking a bit more about this. I realize that you are all very busy, and it might be hard to write the paper by apportioning it into sections. The main things that I'd like to have you guys work on are (a) Doing a user survey so we can include some hard data (b) Researching related work in the HCI literature (c) Generating good graphics for the paper, e.g. some diagrams in addition to screenshots (d) Reviewing draft copy and producing it if you want to So what I'm thinking is that you could each take on one of a-c, and share in d, and I could take the lead on the rest, mostly involving writing. How does this sound? You should indicate in your vote which of a-c you would want to do. ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-11-04 21:41:51.------ :I'm not sure how to vote here, could we talk about it a bit? I read over the outline/guidelines on the CHI site. I agree that this is very appropriate for our project, and the outline should make the paper fairly easy to write. Plus the publicity from presenting our project at CHI would be a great for generating additional interest in Deme. However, I hesitate because adding a deadline that falls 3 days after exams are finished to the schedule means that we will probably end up doing most of the work around deadweek and exams (scary). Furthermore, I don't feel that my writing skill is of "conference publication" caliber. What do other people think? : :~Andrew : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-04 21:29:09.------ ::We need to decide whether to submit to CHI's design expo (http://www.chi2005.org/cfp/designexpo.html). Deadline is Dec. 13, and we'd need to write 12-16 pages. Specify in your vote whether you would be willing to help write the paper, and if so what sections (see outline in link under "How to Submit").	2004-11-04 23:59:24	432	152	3
safety mirror	brendan	the best would be sourceforge.net I think. Then you automatically get mirrored via their system to several locations around the world. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-29 16:26:13.------ :I think it would be good to have a second download site, ideally one to which the person who does new releases has access. That would make me feel like were are less vulnerable to a catastrophic event in Chris Manning's lab. Candidate locations include Andrew's and Brendan's personal www space on AFS, but maybe we could set up a Deme AFS space?	2004-11-05 01:17:55	395	0	1
links page off group home	brendan	Off the group home page, we have this little "links" feature, which was put together extremely fast and is extremely not-so-featureful. It's one of those old things I ran across during my code cleanup-restructuring: I feel that we shouldn't have it anymore. Do people have any opinions?	2004-11-05 01:19:01	0	0	1
meta db "meeting_areas" table?	brendan	In the meta DB there's a table called meeting_areas. I'm not sure what it's for since their info is all in a group db's mareas table. grepping reveals it's not used anywhere. May I remove it from the official schema? It would be nice to centralize them if we want to make intergroup meeting areas, but everything in Deme is architected for autonomous isolated groups (in violation of one of our mentioned goals on the About page!) anyway.	2004-11-05 01:23:02	0	0	14
starting the restructuring task	brendan	Heads up -- I'm starting the restructuring task we talked about at today's meeting. My work will be in deme-restr/ , which eventually will become a releasable dir. I'll start a new cvs repository once it's together. (this I think will lose our cvs history so far...)	2004-11-05 03:07:09	0	0	0
Re: Link: "POD Internal Group, early 2004"	todd	This link also has the Pear DB problem. How hard is this to fix? ------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-19 16:49:18.------ :This is the link to the internal group for discussions from January through early July, 2004.	2004-11-05 07:40:59	87	39	0
Yeah!	todd	That would also get deme.sf going. ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-11-05 01:17:55.------ :the best would be sourceforge.net I think. Then you automatically get mirrored via their system to several locations around the world. : : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-10-29 16:26:13.------ ::I think it would be good to have a second download site, ideally one to which the person who does new releases has access. That would make me feel like were are less vulnerable to a catastrophic event in Chris Manning's lab. Candidate locations include Andrew's and Brendan's personal www space on AFS, but maybe we could set up a Deme AFS space?	2004-11-05 07:41:57	438	0	0
need a top-level links resource	todd	I think we need Links in the group resources, but think it should be made more friendly. Doesn't have to be elaborate - just showing and uploading links with annotations. ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-11-05 01:19:01.------ :Off the group home page, we have this little "links" feature, which was put together extremely fast and is extremely not-so-featureful. It's one of those old things I ran across during my code cleanup-restructuring: I feel that we shouldn't have it anymore. Do people have any opinions?	2004-11-05 07:44:56	439	0	0
Re: meta db "meeting_areas" table?	todd	Obviously it would be good to move toward supporting intergroup meeting areas if we can - I'll leave it to you to decide how doable for now. ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-11-05 01:23:02.------ :In the meta DB there's a table called meeting_areas. I'm not sure what it's for since their info is all in a group db's mareas table. grepping reveals it's not used anywhere. May I remove it from the official schema? : :It would be nice to centralize them if we want to make intergroup meeting areas, but everything in Deme is architected for autonomous isolated groups (in violation of one of our mentioned goals on the About page!) anyway.	2004-11-05 07:48:14	440	0	0
meta_db	alex	This table was exactly that: a possible step towards intergroup meetings. However, I created it without any actual coding php side and later realized its not at all a great solution. It's aesthetically nice to be able to pack up a group's whole DB and be confident you've gotten almost all the groups info, without worrying overly about pulling things from the meta_db. A multi-group solution is there somewhere, but not here. I say pull it if you want. ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-11-05 01:23:02.------ :In the meta DB there's a table called meeting_areas. I'm not sure what it's for since their info is all in a group db's mareas table. grepping reveals it's not used anywhere. May I remove it from the official schema? : :It would be nice to centralize them if we want to make intergroup meeting areas, but everything in Deme is architected for autonomous isolated groups (in violation of one of our mentioned goals on the About page!) anyway.	2004-11-05 08:36:16	440	0	12
One big database??	brendan	Cool. To support multigroup stuff we'll need to have some sort of info in the meta db -- if not this full out meeting_area table, maybe some sort of intergroup_mareas which lists meeting areas in other groups that others are allowed to access as well. If we're serious about architecting Deme to support intergroup stuff, we should scrap our one-database-per-group architecture, and put everything in One Big Database. That means every table that's currently in a group databsae -- msgs, docs, etc etc. -- needs to have a group_id column to say where it belongs. In the future it would be possible to add columns to talk about multiple groups it belonged to. Currently, intergroup stuff is a little stilted because you need to make several different database connections (one per db!) and manually retrieve values that relate different group information to each other... with One Big Database you could just run SELECTs with JOINs or something to do it more cleanly. ------ alex wrote on: 2004-11-05 08:36:16.------ :This table was exactly that: a possible step towards intergroup meetings. However, I created it without any actual coding php side and later realized its not at all a great solution. It's aesthetically nice to be able to pack up a group's whole DB and be confident you've gotten almost all the groups info, without worrying overly about pulling things from the meta_db. : :A multi-group solution is there somewhere, but not here. I say pull it if you want. : :------ brendan wrote on: 2004-11-05 01:23:02.------ ::In the meta DB there's a table called meeting_areas. I'm not sure what it's for since their info is all in a group db's mareas table. grepping reveals it's not used anywhere. May I remove it from the official schema? :: ::It would be nice to centralize them if we want to make intergroup meeting areas, but everything in Deme is architected for autonomous isolated groups (in violation of one of our mentioned goals on the About page!) anyway.	2004-11-05 11:11:13	446	0	11
no i don't advocate doing that	brendan	Sorry, I should have been more clear. I don't think rewriting Deme to do this single database thing is really worth it at this point; intergroup via manual integration of different databases, I think is fine; and the high level of separation between different group databases is awfully convenient when programming, can be made more secure (different passwords per database), and is clearer from a database management perspective (no one big confusing pool of data for many different, potentially unrelated groups) ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-11-05 11:11:13.------ :Cool. To support multigroup stuff we'll need to have some sort of info in the meta db -- if not this full out meeting_area table, maybe some sort of intergroup_mareas which lists meeting areas in other groups that others are allowed to access as well. : :If we're serious about architecting Deme to support intergroup stuff, we should scrap our one-database-per-group architecture, and put everything in One Big Database. That means every table that's currently in a group databsae -- msgs, docs, etc etc. -- needs to have a group_id column to say where it belongs. In the future it would be possible to add columns to talk about multiple groups it belonged to. : :Currently, intergroup stuff is a little stilted because you need to make several different database connections (one per db!) and manually retrieve values that relate different group information to each other... with One Big Database you could just run SELECTs with JOINs or something to do it more cleanly. : : : :------ alex wrote on: 2004-11-05 08:36:16.------ ::This table was exactly that: a possible step towards intergroup meetings. However, I created it without any actual coding php side and later realized its not at all a great solution. It's aesthetically nice to be able to pack up a group's whole DB and be confident you've gotten almost all the groups info, without worrying overly about pulling things from the meta_db. :: ::A multi-group solution is there somewhere, but not here. I say pull it if you want. :: ::------ brendan wrote on: 2004-11-05 01:23:02.------ :::In the meta DB there's a table called meeting_areas. I'm not sure what it's for since their info is all in a group db's mareas table. grepping reveals it's not used anywhere. May I remove it from the official schema? ::: :::It would be nice to centralize them if we want to make intergroup meeting areas, but everything in Deme is architected for autonomous isolated groups (in violation of one of our mentioned goals on the About page!) anyway.	2004-11-05 11:13:12	447	0	2
Multiple installations	todd	One thing to keep in mind is that eventually we would like groups to be able to work together across different installations of Deme, so one database doesn't seem like the way to go. Also, I think a group's data should be mobile, so they can switch to a different Deme host easily. The model for shared meeting areas that we've discussed in the past involves symlinking for secondary groups into the primary (host) group's meeting area. The permissions issues are obviously complicated. I assume getting multiple installations to work together requires either a central database of groups or a Usenet-style system of coping group metadata across different servers. The latter would be better for robustness. ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-11-05 11:13:12.------ :Sorry, I should have been more clear. I don't think rewriting Deme to do this single database thing is really worth it at this point; intergroup via manual integration of different databases, I think is fine; and the high level of separation between different group databases is awfully convenient when programming, can be made more secure (different passwords per database), and is clearer from a database management perspective (no one big confusing pool of data for many different, potentially unrelated groups) : :------ brendan wrote on: 2004-11-05 11:11:13.------ ::Cool. To support multigroup stuff we'll need to have some sort of info in the meta db -- if not this full out meeting_area table, maybe some sort of intergroup_mareas which lists meeting areas in other groups that others are allowed to access as well. :: ::If we're serious about architecting Deme to support intergroup stuff, we should scrap our one-database-per-group architecture, and put everything in One Big Database. That means every table that's currently in a group databsae -- msgs, docs, etc etc. -- needs to have a group_id column to say where it belongs. In the future it would be possible to add columns to talk about multiple groups it belonged to. :: ::Currently, intergroup stuff is a little stilted because you need to make several different database connections (one per db!) and manually retrieve values that relate different group information to each other... with One Big Database you could just run SELECTs with JOINs or something to do it more cleanly. :: :: :: ::------ alex wrote on: 2004-11-05 08:36:16.------ :::This table was exactly that: a possible step towards intergroup meetings. However, I created it without any actual coding php side and later realized its not at all a great solution. It's aesthetically nice to be able to pack up a group's whole DB and be confident you've gotten almost all the groups info, without worrying overly about pulling things from the meta_db. ::: :::A multi-group solution is there somewhere, but not here. I say pull it if you want. ::: :::------ brendan wrote on: 2004-11-05 01:23:02.------ ::::In the meta DB there's a table called meeting_areas. I'm not sure what it's for since their info is all in a group db's mareas table. grepping reveals it's not used anywhere. May I remove it from the official schema? :::: ::::It would be nice to centralize them if we want to make intergroup meeting areas, but everything in Deme is architected for autonomous isolated groups (in violation of one of our mentioned goals on the About page!) anyway.	2004-11-05 11:43:35	448	0	1
Correction	todd	I meant copying not coping. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-05 11:43:35.------ : or a Usenet-style system of coping group metadata across different servers.	2004-11-05 11:45:01	449	0	0
clarification	todd	:(a) Doing a user survey so we can include some hard data I should clarify that the main work here would probably be in getting the survey up on the web.	2004-11-05 13:37:32	437	152	2
Surveymonkey	andrew	Perhaps we should use surveymonkey.com. That's what was used for feedback at the conference I went to this summer. ~Andrew ------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-05 13:37:32.------ ::(a) Doing a user survey so we can include some hard data : :I should clarify that the main work here would probably be in getting the survey up on the web. :	2004-11-05 15:26:15	451	152	1
Re: Surveymonkey	todd	Yeah, that might work. Looks like we could get by with the free service. ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-11-05 15:26:15.------ :Perhaps we should use surveymonkey.com. That's what was used for feedback at the conference I went to this summer. : :~Andrew : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-05 13:37:32.------ :::(a) Doing a user survey so we can include some hard data :: ::I should clarify that the main work here would probably be in getting the survey up on the web. ::	2004-11-05 15:45:00	452	152	0
Remember to vote!	todd	...on whether to submit to CHI. Poll closes tonight. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-04 21:29:09.------ :We need to decide whether to submit to CHI's design expo (http://www.chi2005.org/cfp/designexpo.html). Deadline is Dec. 13, and we'd need to write 12-16 pages. Specify in your vote whether you would be willing to help write the paper, and if so what sections (see outline in link under "How to Submit").	2004-11-07 15:47:48	430	152	0
Link: ""Group as User" by Clay Shirky"	todd	Interesting new article on the prevention and cause of flaming, by Internet pundit/blogger.	2004-11-07 16:27:55	0	153	0
Vote Has Closed		This vote was automatically closed at Mon Nov 8 00:00:01 2004	2004-11-08 00:00:01	0	152	1
okay, it passes	todd	I forgot to vote myself to make the 3/4 majority needed, but of course I am willing to work on it. I'll work on a plan this week. ------ wrote on: 2004-11-08 00:00:01.------ :This vote was automatically closed at Mon Nov 8 00:00:01 2004	2004-11-08 00:18:50	456	152	0
Note about meeting areas	alex	We've probably had this concern before, but I forgot our final call ... what happens when different groups create meeting areas with the same name? As in, I create "Best test area" and Brendan does as well? As the number of groups increases, this problem will come up, especially with names like "General Discussion." I feel we can let group 2 not have a meeting area name just because group 1 got there first. The conflict mainly (only?) comes up in the SQL database. Should we then prefix meeting area names with group names? Or group ID, maybe?	2004-11-08 14:52:57	447	0	7
Correction	alex	Meant to say: :As the number of groups increases, this problem will come up, especially with names like "General Discussion." I feel that we shouldn't prevent group 2 from having a meeting area name just because group 1 got there first.	2004-11-08 14:54:44	458	0	6
Update: "Add task letters to table"	alex	'alex' marked this task as completed on November 8th, 2004, 16:00	2004-11-08 16:00:59	83	5	0
Update: "Link parsing in curmsg"	alex	'alex' marked this task as completed on November 8th, 2004, 16:01	2004-11-08 16:01:46	41	5	5
not a problem	brendan	each table of meeting areas is local to its own group database, so it's not a problem. If we implement a cross-group meeting area system, it should be as references between groups and marea_id's, so names aren't relevant and conflicts like that don't occur. And the column for full names doesn't have to have unique values, so that would work. I think the only column required to be UNIQUE for mareas is marea_id. And we should make the shortname UNIQUE too. ------ alex wrote on: 2004-11-08 14:54:44.------ :Meant to say: : ::As the number of groups increases, this problem will come up, especially with names like "General Discussion." I feel that we shouldn't prevent group 2 from having a meeting area name just because group 1 got there first. :	2004-11-08 21:05:20	459	0	5
say if in base2?	brendan	did the fix get into base2? if not that's fine, but we should say whether or not it did get there ------ alex wrote on: 2004-11-08 16:01:46.------ : : :'alex' marked this task as completed on November 8th, 2004, 16:01	2004-11-08 21:06:15	461	5	4
caution	todd	I think we should be very careful about updates to base2 outside of full releases. Only if you are absolutely sure it's okay. Better to test it out in the main dev version first. One idea would be to make this Deme team group run off of the candidate dev version, so we give a workout before going public. ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-11-08 21:06:15.------ :did the fix get into base2? if not that's fine, but we should say whether or not it did get there : :------ alex wrote on: 2004-11-08 16:01:46.------ :: :: ::'alex' marked this task as completed on November 8th, 2004, 16:01	2004-11-08 21:36:32	463	5	0
Oops	alex	Once again, I misspoke, well mis-thought. My concern is more of Groups with the same name, when multiple builds are on one system. I guess that's not much of a problem, considering our development environment should be unique. But what would happen if two builds, using the same MySQL environment try to create groups with the same name? Do we have any protection against it?	2004-11-08 22:22:46	462	0	4
Not in base2	alex	Commited to CVS, though. ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-11-08 21:06:15.------ :did the fix get into base2? if not that's fine, but we should say whether or not it did get there : :------ alex wrote on: 2004-11-08 16:01:46.------ :: :: ::'alex' marked this task as completed on November 8th, 2004, 16:01	2004-11-08 22:23:34	463	5	2
oops! we don't...	brendan	oops... we don't, as a matter of fact, have anything against that! creategroup.php should have that check in addition to checking the metadb's "groups" table... see if "mysqladmin create SHORTNAME" fails. I can add that as long as I'm doing this restructuring gig (still going....) ------ alex wrote on: 2004-11-08 22:22:46.------ :Once again, I misspoke, well mis-thought. My concern is more of Groups with the same name, when multiple builds are on one system. I guess that's not much of a problem, considering our development environment should be unique. But what would happen if two builds, using the same MySQL environment try to create groups with the same name? Do we have any protection against it?	2004-11-09 02:45:52	465	0	3
interesting	andrew	Is it possible to SELECT the names of all the tables in a mysql database? I always prefer to do error checking on the pre-SQL-insert side of things. Then there's no ugly errors that produce the web-equivalent of a blue-screen-of-death. ~Andrew ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-11-09 02:45:52.------ :oops... we don't, as a matter of fact, have anything against that! : :creategroup.php should have that check in addition to checking the metadb's "groups" table... see if "mysqladmin create SHORTNAME" fails. I can add that as long as I'm doing this restructuring gig (still going....) : :------ alex wrote on: 2004-11-08 22:22:46.------ ::Once again, I misspoke, well mis-thought. My concern is more of Groups with the same name, when multiple builds are on one system. I guess that's not much of a problem, considering our development environment should be unique. But what would happen if two builds, using the same MySQL environment try to create groups with the same name? Do we have any protection against it?	2004-11-09 09:07:32	467	0	1
default = CVS committed	todd	Can we understand that to be the default when tasks are marked completed? ------ alex wrote on: 2004-11-08 22:23:34.------ :Commited to CVS, though. : :------ brendan wrote on: 2004-11-08 21:06:15.------ ::did the fix get into base2? if not that's fine, but we should say whether or not it did get there :: ::------ alex wrote on: 2004-11-08 16:01:46.------ ::: ::: :::'alex' marked this task as completed on November 8th, 2004, 16:00	2004-11-09 10:56:50	466	5	1
Task: "Expandable comments index"	todd	Comments index pane (with both the control panel and the display) should be expandable, especially for larger lists. New browser window is useful for searching through comments.	2004-11-09 11:00:17	17	5	0
Re: oops! we don't...	todd	Am I right in thinking that this would primarily arise during development, e.g. dev versions being used to create groups but also having access to the db used by base2? Might it make sense to wall off the database used by the public from other builds (?) (or more generally to wall off each build's/installation's database from others? Couldn't we have a stock set of groups with content in a db (maybe even including a Deme Team group) for use by non-base2 builds? Sorry if I've misunderstood the issue. ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-11-09 02:45:52.------ :oops... we don't, as a matter of fact, have anything against that! : :creategroup.php should have that check in addition to checking the metadb's "groups" table... see if "mysqladmin create SHORTNAME" fails. I can add that as long as I'm doing this restructuring gig (still going....) : :------ alex wrote on: 2004-11-08 22:22:46.------ ::Once again, I misspoke, well mis-thought. My concern is more of Groups with the same name, when multiple builds are on one system. I guess that's not much of a problem, considering our development environment should be unique. But what would happen if two builds, using the same MySQL environment try to create groups with the same name? Do we have any protection against it?	2004-11-09 11:09:31	467	0	0
importing email archives	todd	One thing to keep in mind is that it would be very useful in future to have a program that reads a file of email messages into a group's meeting area, so the group could have access to its old email list messages. That would greatly facilitate migration from listservs to Deme, I think. Threading could be shallow (just based on Re:), but I wanted to mention this in case it impacts design of the system for email.	2004-11-09 11:13:25	0	156	0
Task: "Email notification inclusion of itemref"	todd	Item-referencing comments do not currently include the item reference in their email notification (e.g. "Todd posted this comment in reference to item 5 - Bylaws [document]". in-text and task comments would need to reference the location letters of course.	2004-11-09 11:20:06	17	5	0
there's some way...	brendan	I don't know if there's some way to SELECT all names of tables in a mysql database... But there IS a way to select all the names of databases (the things that hold multiple tables) inside a mysql installation. There's a database called "mysql" which mysql uses internally to keep track of such things. I dunno whether it's well specified how it works. I think it might be better to try to create the databsae, then see if the database creation worked. Then if it didnt, we can show a screen to the user "that name is bad. select a new name" how to check? "mysqladmin create" returns via the unix program-return-value-system 0 if it succeeds, 1 if it fails. Or maybe we can issue a "CREATE DATABASE" sql command. But it's definitely possible to check whether your attempt to create a new database succeeded or not. brendan ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-11-09 09:07:32.------ :Is it possible to SELECT the names of all the tables in a mysql database? I always prefer to do error checking on the pre-SQL-insert side of things. Then there's no ugly errors that produce the web-equivalent of a blue-screen-of-death. : :~Andrew : :------ brendan wrote on: 2004-11-09 02:45:52.------ ::oops... we don't, as a matter of fact, have anything against that! :: ::creategroup.php should have that check in addition to checking the metadb's "groups" table... see if "mysqladmin create SHORTNAME" fails. I can add that as long as I'm doing this restructuring gig (still going....) :: ::------ alex wrote on: 2004-11-08 22:22:46.------ :::Once again, I misspoke, well mis-thought. My concern is more of Groups with the same name, when multiple builds are on one system. I guess that's not much of a problem, considering our development environment should be unique. But what would happen if two builds, using the same MySQL environment try to create groups with the same name? Do we have any protection against it?	2004-11-09 11:52:01	468	0	0
yes, default = cvs committed	brendan	yeah, that's what we agreed i believe (sorry for sowing confusion) ------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-09 10:56:50.------ :Can we understand that to be the default when tasks are marked completed? : :------ alex wrote on: 2004-11-08 22:23:34.------ ::Commited to CVS, though. :: ::------ brendan wrote on: 2004-11-08 21:06:15.------ :::did the fix get into base2? if not that's fine, but we should say whether or not it did get there ::: :::------ alex wrote on: 2004-11-08 16:01:46.------ :::: :::: ::::'alex' marked this task as completed on November 8th, 2004, 16:00	2004-11-09 11:52:56	469	5	0
Update: "Problem with blank subject responses"	andrew	'andrew' deleted this task on November 9th, 2004, 16:18	2004-11-09 16:18:10	154	5	2
Couldn't recreate	andrew	I couldn't recreate this task, and it sounds very much like the group where this undesired behavior occured was probably marked as DEBUG=true in the conf file (because this is exactly what happens in PODDEBUG mode), so I'm deleting this task for now (it can always be undeleted if this action was improper). ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-11-09 16:18:10.------ : : :'andrew' deleted this task on November 9th, 2004, 16:18	2004-11-09 16:19:51	476	5	1
Update: "Display only date in task table"	andrew	'andrew' marked this task as completed on November 9th, 2004, 17:18	2004-11-09 17:18:40	27	5	1
Re: Update: "Display only date in task table"	andrew	looks like most of this was covered by alex in a different task. I did added the last bit to reformat the modified date. ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-11-09 17:18:40.------ : : :'andrew' marked this task as completed on November 9th, 2004, 17:18	2004-11-09 17:19:41	478	5	0
Update: "Piece server backup cleaning script"	andrew	'andrew' marked this task as completed on November 9th, 2004, 17:20	2004-11-09 17:20:48	92	5	1
Re: Update: "Piece server backup cleaning script"	andrew	should have been marked awhile ago. Just cleaning up. ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-11-09 17:20:48.------ : : :'andrew' marked this task as completed on November 9th, 2004, 17:20	2004-11-09 17:21:13	480	5	0
Task: "Link item display enlarging to current location"	todd	Enlarging the webapage display pane for clicked link items should show the page displayed in the display pane at the time the enlarge button is clicked. Right now it enlarges to the link in the link item.	2004-11-09 17:24:21	17	5	0
Update: "No preface in task display"	alex	'alex' became a handler for this task on November 9th, 2004, 17:32	2004-11-09 17:32:04	217	5	0
fixed	brendan	i fixed this a little while back, it actually was a quote escaping bug. my bad on not closing the task in the first place! ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-11-09 16:19:51.------ :I couldn't recreate this task, and it sounds very much like the group where this undesired behavior occured was probably marked as DEBUG=true in the conf file (because this is exactly what happens in PODDEBUG mode), so I'm deleting this task for now (it can always be undeleted if this action was improper). : :------ andrew wrote on: 2004-11-09 16:18:10.------ :: :: ::'andrew' deleted this task on November 9th, 2004, 16:18	2004-11-09 17:35:48	477	5	0
Update: "No preface in task display"	alex	'alex' marked this task as completed on November 9th, 2004, 17:37	2004-11-09 17:37:33	217	5	0
Update: "Placement of pulldowns in task posting"	alex	'alex' became a handler for this task on November 9th, 2004, 17:40	2004-11-09 17:40:59	33	5	0
Link: "OpenGroupware.org"	todd	Interesting project, very ambitious - found while looking for "xml groupware" but they don't seem to be doing what I am looking for.	2004-11-09 17:41:50	0	159	0
Link: "Obliquid"	todd	Another groupware project - claims modules can be used to create web portal.	2004-11-09 17:43:17	0	160	0
Update: "Placement of pulldowns in task posting"	alex	'alex' marked this task as completed on November 9th, 2004, 18:05	2004-11-09 18:05:04	33	5	0
Update: "Create Tasks and Proj Simultaneously"	andrew	'andrew' became a handler for this task on November 9th, 2004, 19:02	2004-11-09 19:02:19	42	5	0
Re: Help! I can't log in to Groupspace.	todd	Okay, Brendan, thanks for fixing it so quickly. I guess for system-level changes we always run the risk of these kinds of interruptions. Maybe we could develop a notification protocol and do it at off peak times as a Todd On Wed, 10 Nov 2004, Brendan O'Connor wrote: > solved. entirely my fault. i tried to change php's session_name() in > base2, but didn't do enough testing. It's fixed now. > > (my reasoning was that it would make our multiple installs on the same > machine more cleanly separated (no more cross-authenticated logins). not > worth it, apparently.) > > On Wed, 10 Nov 2004, Todd Davies wrote: > > > Groupspace won't accept my login. I can log in to Piece under my > > username, however. Anyone know what's up? > > > > Todd	2004-11-10 21:01:44	0	0	0
Update: "Faulty post-task-creation highlight"	alex	'alex' became a handler for this task on November 11th, 2004, 13:23	2004-11-11 13:23:20	43	5	0
Update: "Change "original message" -> "Announcement""	alex	'alex' became a handler for this task on November 11th, 2004, 13:24	2004-11-11 13:24:20	85	5	0
Update: "URLs with colons"	alex	'alex' became a handler for this task on November 11th, 2004, 13:25	2004-11-11 13:25:07	116	5	0
Update: "Tasklist should persist view"	alex	'alex' became a handler for this task on November 11th, 2004, 13:26	2004-11-11 13:26:03	192	5	0
Update: "URLs with colons"	alex	'alex' marked this task as completed on November 11th, 2004, 13:31	2004-11-11 13:31:55	116	5	0
Update: "Change "original message" -> "Announcement""	alex	'alex' marked this task as completed on November 11th, 2004, 13:51	2004-11-11 13:51:52	85	5	0
errors in IE 6/Windows XP Pro	todd	I'm getting a bunch of errors in IE 6.0/Windows XP Pro. Has anyone else tried this recently? If you try it and you don't see errors, I will go through it on my office machine (dual boot with Windows XP Pro booted, which is where I get the errors) and note them, or maybe you can see them at our next meeting.	2004-11-12 17:24:03	0	0	0
massive find and replace	brendan	i think andrew mentioned this at the last meeting. while unix isn't as nice as an IDE, i figured out how to do a decent job and big find-and-replace operations across files... i posted what i'm using at http://groupspace.org/DemeWiki/MassiveFindAndReplace	2004-11-13 16:40:02	0	0	1
Nice! (nm)	todd	------ brendan wrote on: 2004-11-13 16:40:02.------ :i think andrew mentioned this at the last meeting. while unix isn't as nice as an IDE, i figured out how to do a decent job and big find-and-replace operations across files... i posted what i'm using at : :http://groupspace.org/DemeWiki/MassiveFindAndReplace	2004-11-13 21:59:41	499	0	0
useful mozilla dev plugin	brendan	I recently found this firefox developer's plugin, it can show useful DOM programming things like class and id attributes, and a number of other clientside web things. "Web Developer": https://update.mozilla.org/extensions/moreinfo.php?application=firefox&id=60&vid=645	2004-11-14 13:05:08	0	0	0
Task: "failing to recognize sessions"	andrew	After logging in on the "meta" level by surfing to www.groupspace.org/base2/ and signing in, When I go to any of the groups in my "my groups" area, the individual group site does not recognized that I'm logged in. I then have to login again to navigate in the group. I'm guessing this has to do with the recently changed session name, my login session is not carrying over from the meta lvl to the group lvl.	2004-11-14 21:40:14	17	5	7
Good task	todd	Thanks for noting this, Alex. I've noticed the repeated login requests, but didn't know what was causing them. ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-11-14 21:40:14.------ :After logging in on the "meta" level by surfing to www.groupspace.org/base2/ and signing in, When I go to any of the groups in my "my groups" area, the individual group site does not recognized that I'm logged in. I then have to login again to navigate in the group. I'm guessing this has to do with the recently changed session name, my login session is not carrying over from the meta lvl to the group lvl.	2004-11-14 22:02:52	502	5	1
oops, I meant Andrew (nm)	todd	------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-14 22:02:52.------ :Thanks for noting this, Alex. I've noticed the repeated login requests, but didn't know what was causing them. : :------ andrew wrote on: 2004-11-14 21:40:14.------ ::After logging in on the "meta" level by surfing to www.groupspace.org/base2/ and signing in, When I go to any of the groups in my "my groups" area, the individual group site does not recognized that I'm logged in. I then have to login again to navigate in the group. I'm guessing this has to do with the recently changed session name, my login session is not carrying over from the meta lvl to the group lvl.	2004-11-14 22:06:36	503	5	0
Link: "KPFA battle letter"	todd	This is one of the documents in a recent struggle over programming decisions at KPFA. The thing to note here is how the rift is built on the fact that a decision was made at a f2f meeting at which some program council members were not present. This is just one example of a very common pattern. Think how differently the whole thing would go if members had had the option of voting asynchronously online.	2004-11-15 02:37:19	0	162	0
Link: "TxtMob"	todd	This text-message groupware site was used by protesters at the the Republican National Convention in nyc (see http://www.democracynow.org/static/ny_model.shtml).	2004-11-15 11:52:41	0	163	0
missing meeting	andrew	Hey all, I don't think I can make it this Thursday. I have a job interview I need to deal with. The interview might be rescheduled, but as of right now, it's likely that to directly conflict with our usual meeting. Sorry. ~Andrew	2004-11-17 12:53:08	0	0	7
What about Alex and Brendan?	todd	Can you both make it tomorrow? If not, we should reschedule. Would next Tuesday at 4:45 work for everyone? ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-11-17 12:53:08.------ :Hey all, :I don't think I can make it this Thursday. I have a job interview I need to deal with. The interview might be rescheduled, but as of right now, it's likely that to directly conflict with our usual meeting. Sorry. : :~Andrew	2004-11-17 13:36:56	507	0	6
tues works for me	brendan	I'm fine with either the normal thurs @ 3:10, or Tues @ 4:45. I'd prefer Tuesday, actually. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-17 13:36:56.------ :Can you both make it tomorrow? If not, we should reschedule. Would next Tuesday at 4:45 work for everyone? : :------ andrew wrote on: 2004-11-17 12:53:08.------ ::Hey all, ::I don't think I can make it this Thursday. I have a job interview I need to deal with. The interview might be rescheduled, but as of right now, it's likely that to directly conflict with our usual meeting. Sorry. :: ::~Andrew	2004-11-17 13:40:28	508	0	5
meeting	alex	I can do thursday as usual, but I think I'd prefer Tuesday as well. I'm trying to handle the whole job process as well. And if anyone asks ... I did all the work on Deme, and the rest of you simply offered suggestions which I then improved and expanded upon. ;) Just kidding. ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-11-17 13:40:28.------ :I'm fine with either the normal thurs @ 3:10, or Tues @ 4:45. I'd prefer Tuesday, actually. : : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-17 13:36:56.------ ::Can you both make it tomorrow? If not, we should reschedule. Would next Tuesday at 4:45 work for everyone? :: ::------ andrew wrote on: 2004-11-17 12:53:08.------ :::Hey all, :::I don't think I can make it this Thursday. I have a job interview I need to deal with. The interview might be rescheduled, but as of right now, it's likely that to directly conflict with our usual meeting. Sorry. ::: :::~Andrew	2004-11-17 15:44:57	509	0	4
tues then..	brendan	Based upon everyone's input, this sounds like a decision for Tuesday then. The piece of information we're still missing is availability then. i think conversations like this are a good argument for explicit information dispays that code things like meeting times in an explicit representation not just text. (though we talked about before why implcit can be better sometimes) ------ alex wrote on: 2004-11-17 15:44:57.------ :I can do thursday as usual, but I think I'd prefer Tuesday as well. I'm trying to handle the whole job process as well. And if anyone asks ... I did all the work on Deme, and the rest of you simply offered suggestions which I then improved and expanded upon. ;) : :Just kidding. : :------ brendan wrote on: 2004-11-17 13:40:28.------ ::I'm fine with either the normal thurs @ 3:10, or Tues @ 4:45. I'd prefer Tuesday, actually. :: :: ::------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-17 13:36:56.------ :::Can you both make it tomorrow? If not, we should reschedule. Would next Tuesday at 4:45 work for everyone? ::: :::------ andrew wrote on: 2004-11-17 12:53:08.------ ::::Hey all, ::::I don't think I can make it this Thursday. I have a job interview I need to deal with. The interview might be rescheduled, but as of right now, it's likely that to directly conflict with our usual meeting. Sorry. :::: ::::~Andrew	2004-11-17 23:08:21	510	0	3
Okay, Tues at 4:45	todd	That works better for me too, as I am scrambling to leave tomorrow night for four days. I don't think we know if Andrew can make it Tues or not though. Explicit representation I take to mean something like, in this context, a data structure in which questions are represented by variables? If the task is recurring but complex, calling for computation, that makes sense, but of course unstructured text has the advantage of expressiveness between humans. A schedule (with computation/decision making, as opposed to a calendar) item type would be useful at some point, though. I don't know what the best models are. ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-11-17 23:08:21.------ :Based upon everyone's input, this sounds like a decision for Tuesday then. The piece of information we're still missing is availability then. : :i think conversations like this are a good argument for explicit information dispays that code things like meeting times in an explicit representation not just text. (though we talked about before why implcit can be better sometimes) : :------ alex wrote on: 2004-11-17 15:44:57.------ ::I can do thursday as usual, but I think I'd prefer Tuesday as well. I'm trying to handle the whole job process as well. And if anyone asks ... I did all the work on Deme, and the rest of you simply offered suggestions which I then improved and expanded upon. ;) :: ::Just kidding. :: ::------ brendan wrote on: 2004-11-17 13:40:28.------ :::I'm fine with either the normal thurs @ 3:10, or Tues @ 4:45. I'd prefer Tuesday, actually. ::: ::: :::------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-17 13:36:56.------ ::::Can you both make it tomorrow? If not, we should reschedule. Would next Tuesday at 4:45 work for everyone? :::: ::::------ andrew wrote on: 2004-11-17 12:53:08.------ :::::Hey all, :::::I don't think I can make it this Thursday. I have a job interview I need to deal with. The interview might be rescheduled, but as of right now, it's likely that to directly conflict with our usual meeting. Sorry. ::::: :::::~Andrew	2004-11-17 23:25:51	511	0	2
Tuesday at 4:45	andrew	This time is fine. Thanks for being so flexible. Where are you off to Todd? ~Andrew ------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-17 23:25:51.------ :That works better for me too, as I am scrambling to leave tomorrow night for four days. I don't think we know if Andrew can make it Tues or not though. : :Explicit representation I take to mean something like, in this context, a data structure in which questions are represented by variables? If the task is recurring but complex, calling for computation, that makes sense, but of course unstructured text has the advantage of expressiveness between humans. A schedule (with computation/decision making, as opposed to a calendar) item type would be useful at some point, though. I don't know what the best models are. : :------ brendan wrote on: 2004-11-17 23:08:21.------ ::Based upon everyone's input, this sounds like a decision for Tuesday then. The piece of information we're still missing is availability then. :: ::i think conversations like this are a good argument for explicit information dispays that code things like meeting times in an explicit representation not just text. (though we talked about before why implcit can be better sometimes) :: ::------ alex wrote on: 2004-11-17 15:44:57.------ :::I can do thursday as usual, but I think I'd prefer Tuesday as well. I'm trying to handle the whole job process as well. And if anyone asks ... I did all the work on Deme, and the rest of you simply offered suggestions which I then improved and expanded upon. ;) ::: :::Just kidding. ::: :::------ brendan wrote on: 2004-11-17 13:40:28.------ ::::I'm fine with either the normal thurs @ 3:10, or Tues @ 4:45. I'd prefer Tuesday, actually. :::: :::: ::::------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-17 13:36:56.------ :::::Can you both make it tomorrow? If not, we should reschedule. Would next Tuesday at 4:45 work for everyone? ::::: :::::------ andrew wrote on: 2004-11-17 12:53:08.------ ::::::Hey all, ::::::I don't think I can make it this Thursday. I have a job interview I need to deal with. The interview might be rescheduled, but as of right now, it's likely that to directly conflict with our usual meeting. Sorry. :::::: ::::::~Andrew	2004-11-18 00:37:24	512	0	1
Re: Tuesday at 4:45	todd	Great - noted. I'll be in minnesota (brrrrrrr!!!!!) for the Psychonomic Society/Society for Judgment and Decision Making meetings tomorrow through Monday, back Tuesday morning. I'll try to find hotspots but don't know how often I'll be online while I'm away. ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-11-18 00:37:24.------ :This time is fine. Thanks for being so flexible. : :Where are you off to Todd? : :~Andrew : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-17 23:25:51.------ ::That works better for me too, as I am scrambling to leave tomorrow night for four days. I don't think we know if Andrew can make it Tues or not though. :: ::Explicit representation I take to mean something like, in this context, a data structure in which questions are represented by variables? If the task is recurring but complex, calling for computation, that makes sense, but of course unstructured text has the advantage of expressiveness between humans. A schedule (with computation/decision making, as opposed to a calendar) item type would be useful at some point, though. I don't know what the best models are. :: ::------ brendan wrote on: 2004-11-17 23:08:21.------ :::Based upon everyone's input, this sounds like a decision for Tuesday then. The piece of information we're still missing is availability then. ::: :::i think conversations like this are a good argument for explicit information dispays that code things like meeting times in an explicit representation not just text. (though we talked about before why implcit can be better sometimes) ::: :::------ alex wrote on: 2004-11-17 15:44:57.------ ::::I can do thursday as usual, but I think I'd prefer Tuesday as well. I'm trying to handle the whole job process as well. And if anyone asks ... I did all the work on Deme, and the rest of you simply offered suggestions which I then improved and expanded upon. ;) :::: ::::Just kidding. :::: ::::------ brendan wrote on: 2004-11-17 13:40:28.------ :::::I'm fine with either the normal thurs @ 3:10, or Tues @ 4:45. I'd prefer Tuesday, actually. ::::: ::::: :::::------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-17 13:36:56.------ ::::::Can you both make it tomorrow? If not, we should reschedule. Would next Tuesday at 4:45 work for everyone? :::::: ::::::------ andrew wrote on: 2004-11-17 12:53:08.------ :::::::Hey all, :::::::I don't think I can make it this Thursday. I have a job interview I need to deal with. The interview might be rescheduled, but as of right now, it's likely that to directly conflict with our usual meeting. Sorry. ::::::: :::::::~Andrew	2004-11-18 10:39:48	513	0	0
Online deliberation conference	todd	Dates in May are causing too many problems for Peter and Robert, so they suggest June. If we have it the weekend after graduation, do you guys have any idea whether you'd be able to participate? That would be the best for getting space on campus, since it's deserted then.	2004-11-18 10:44:15	0	0	0
Update: "failing to recognize sessions"	todd	Updated on November 19th, 2004, 21:01 by todd -Description changed from 'After logging in on the "meta" level by surfing to www.groupspace.org/base2/ and signing in, When I go to any of the groups in my "my groups" area, the individual group site does not recognized that I'm logged in. I then have to login again to navigate in the group. I'm guessing this has to do with the recently changed session name, my login session is not carrying over from the meta lvl to the group lvl.' to 'After logging in on the \\"meta\\" level by surfing to www.groupspace.org/base2/ and signing in, When I go to any of the groups in my \\"my groups\\" area, the individual group site does not recognized that I\\'m logged in. I then have to login again to navigate in the group. I\\'m guessing this has to do with the recently changed session name, my login session is not carrying over from the meta lvl to the group lvl.' -Priority changed from 'Medium' to 'High'	2004-11-19 21:01:33	502	5	1
priority changed to high	todd	on the repeat login problem since I noticed how annoying it is on a computer that doesn't store login info. Deme is running nice and fast here in IE/Win XP pro in minnesota, but I am noticing longer load times in meeting areas like this one that have lots of content. Time to think about paging. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-11-19 21:01:33.------ :Updated on November 19th, 2004, 21:01 by todd :-Description changed from 'After logging in on the "meta" level by surfing to www.groupspace.org/base2/ and signing in, When I go to any of the groups in my "my groups" area, the individual group site does not recognized that I'm logged in. I then have to login again to navigate in the group. I'm guessing this has to do with the recently changed session name, my login session is not carrying over from the meta lvl to the group lvl.' to 'After logging in on the \\"meta\\" level by surfing to www.groupspace.org/base2/ and signing in, When I go to any of the groups in my \\"my groups\\" area, the individual group site does not recognized that I\\'m logged in. I then have to login again to navigate in the group. I\\'m guessing this has to do with the recently changed session name, my login session is not carrying over from the meta lvl to the group lvl.' :-Priority changed from 'Medium' to 'High'	2004-11-19 21:03:22	516	5	0
Update: "failing to recognize sessions"	brendan	'brendan' marked this task as completed on November 20th, 2004, 16:30	2004-11-20 16:30:08	502	5	2
bug due to symlink system again	brendan	so when i was changing the db password, i did a massive find-and-replace via the perl -pi command. Unfortunately, perl -pi does the wrong thing with symlinks -- it copies out the symlink into a new file, and replaces that. What happened is that each group's allgroups.conf.php was now a copy of the central one, instead of a symlink. So when i changed the central one for a new session name, the meta level code used it, but per-group code did not. the allgroups.conf.php's are now all symlinked back again. this was done via piece:/var/www/html/deme/base2/groups $ for f in */allgroups.conf.php; do ln -sf ../../code/allgroups.conf.php $f; done by the way, the session name is now DEME_BASE2_SESSION. ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-11-20 16:30:08.------ : : :'brendan' marked this task as completed on November 20th, 2004, 16:30	2004-11-20 16:37:13	518	5	1
thanks!	todd	Great to see this fixed! ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-11-20 16:37:13.------ :so when i was changing the db password, i did a massive find-and-replace via the perl -pi command. Unfortunately, perl -pi does the wrong thing with symlinks -- it copies out the symlink into a new file, and replaces that. What happened is that each group's allgroups.conf.php was now a copy of the central one, instead of a symlink. So when i changed the central one for a new session name, the meta level code used it, but per-group code did not. : :the allgroups.conf.php's are now all symlinked back again. this was done via : :piece:/var/www/html/deme/base2/groups :$ for f in */allgroups.conf.php; do ln -sf ../../code/allgroups.conf.php $f; done : : :by the way, the session name is now DEME_BASE2_SESSION. : : : :------ brendan wrote on: 2004-11-20 16:30:08.------ :: :: ::'brendan' marked this task as completed on November 20th, 2004, 16:30	2004-11-20 18:19:28	519	5	0
New Document: "first favicon.ico"	andrew	This is one idea for our favicon.ico	2004-11-21 22:12:37	0	164	0
New Document: "second favicon.ico"	andrew	Second idea	2004-11-21 22:13:14	0	165	0
New Document: "third favicon.ico"	andrew	Yet another favicon possibility. This one is the idea we settled upon in our meeting two weeks ago, but currently its my least favorite one.	2004-11-21 22:14:23	0	166	1
New Poll: "Which favicon?"	andrew	Hey all, I took a few stabs at favicons. I've posted my current top three choices as documents. Anyway, if you think a completely different design would be best, tell me what you'd like to see (or make your own at http://www.favicon.co.uk/ ). If you like one of these, go ahead and vote. ~Andrew	2004-11-21 22:19:46	0	167	0
We didn't actually decide to adopt this	todd	As I recall, I just drew it up as one possibility. I agree - it's too close to the Google favicon. ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-11-21 22:14:23.------ :Yet another favicon possibility. This one is the idea we settled upon in our meeting two weeks ago, but currently its my least favorite one.	2004-11-22 22:28:37	523	166	0
REMINDER: meeting	todd	tomorrow (Tuesday) at 4:45 this week only.	2004-11-22 22:37:55	0	0	0
Update: "Last-changed should reflect status updates"	alex	'alex' became a handler for this task on November 23rd, 2004, 13:04	2004-11-23 13:04:25	413	5	0
Task: "Note comment target in post popup"	todd	The popup through which comments are posted should note where the comment that is being composed will be placed (e.g. "This comment will be referenced in the text of document 3. Forum Planning, after "Jessica Riskin"."). Currently, if you are composing a comment and then read some comments, etc., that change what is displayed in the standard view of the meeting area, you get no explicit reassurance that the comment will appear where you intended it to even though the viewed item in the item display may have changed. Posting works correctly, but users should be able to know this in advance.	2004-11-23 13:47:16	17	5	0
Update: "Last-changed should reflect status updates"	alex	'alex' marked this task as completed on November 23rd, 2004, 16:05	2004-11-23 16:05:25	413	5	0
New Document: "From OnlineFacilitation group: Email versus Message Boards"	todd	Message from Derek Chirnside on the onlinefacitilitation@yahoogroups.com group.	2004-11-23 23:11:40	0	169	0
Vote Has Closed		This vote was automatically closed at Wed Nov 24 00:00:00 2004	2004-11-24 00:00:00	0	167	0
restructuring progressed!	brendan	The Great Restructure has finally gotten over the hump, I think. code in /var/www/html/deme/deme-restr/ . Make sure to look at doc/RESTRUCTURE. Also deme/offweb/conf.php There are still bugs, but many things actually do work at http://groupspace.org/deme-restr/deme/. [note that deme-restr/deme/ corresponds to "base2". the "deme-restr" part would be the enclosing release dir.... e.g. "deme-0.3.2/deme". Only the "deme" dir would actually go into the webspace in a deployed version. I still need to test doing things in the meeting area, and substantially rewrite the backend of creategroup.php. And some other random things. And numerous leftover small path bugs and the like. If some script isn't working and it isn't immediately obvious what's wrong, feel free to tag funny things with //RESTRUCTURE: bla bla bla... I'm also running grep -r RESTRUCTURE over the whole thing to find still outstanding issues.	2004-11-24 03:09:43	0	0	1
that's good news	todd	Should we perhaps release next as 0.4 instead of 0.3.2, to reflect the restructuring? ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-11-24 03:09:43.------ :The Great Restructure has finally gotten over the hump, I think. : :code in /var/www/html/deme/deme-restr/ . Make sure to look at doc/RESTRUCTURE. Also deme/offweb/conf.php : :There are still bugs, but many things actually do work at http://groupspace.org/deme-restr/deme/. [note that deme-restr/deme/ corresponds to "base2". the "deme-restr" part would be the enclosing release dir.... e.g. "deme-0.3.2/deme". Only the "deme" dir would actually go into the webspace in a deployed version. : :I still need to test doing things in the meeting area, and substantially rewrite the backend of creategroup.php. And some other random things. And numerous leftover small path bugs and the like. : :If some script isn't working and it isn't immediately obvious what's wrong, feel free to tag funny things with //RESTRUCTURE: bla bla bla... I'm also running grep -r RESTRUCTURE over the whole thing to find still outstanding issues.	2004-11-24 10:43:25	532	0	0
Link: "Spam forum"	todd	Interesting online event at Techsoup's Virtual Community forum on the impact of spam on nonprofits.	2004-11-30 11:14:10	0	171	0
Link: "Spam forum (2nd try)"	todd	Online event discussing spam in Techsoup's Virtual Communities forum.	2004-11-30 11:15:37	0	172	0
Task: "Complete URLs in link item posts"	todd	When a link item is posted, currently the user has to include the http:// part or the URL doesn't get completed correctly. This should be changed so that www.domain gets correctly converted.	2004-11-30 11:19:42	17	5	0
Link: "Union democracy site"	todd	The AFL-CIO is in the throes of a crisis following the election, and interesting discussion is occurring in a blog-plus-comments format on this site ("Unite to Win").	2004-12-07 11:28:25	0	174	0
Link: "Gar Alperovitz book/radio show"	todd	Interesting discussion with professor from Maryland with whom I agree about a number of things.	2004-12-07 11:33:02	0	175	0
Setting up conference website	todd	I talked today with Robert Cavalier about our May conference plan. He and I agreed on a general plan. I would like to get a website up for the conference soon. The main thing I need help with right now is getting conference web software installed on Piece. I'll post Bayle's links page as an item. It looks to me like the Open Conference System from UBC is pretty good (http://www.pkp.ubc.ca/ocs/) and it runs under PHP/MySQL. Once it is installed I can do the rest of the work. If any of you have time to do this in the next week or so, I could pay the same rate as you are getting for Deme, but we should charge it to a different account. Let me know if you are willing to do this.	2004-12-07 14:50:32	0	0	10
Link: "Bayle's conferenceware list"	todd	Page of links put together for us by Bayle Shanks (SSP '03).	2004-12-07 14:52:02	0	176	0
Whoa!!	todd	I just saw that the UBC site loads in item display when I click on it from here. Pretty cool! ------ todd wrote on: 2004-12-07 14:50:32.------ :I talked today with Robert Cavalier about our May conference plan. He and I agreed on a general plan. I would like to get a website up for the conference soon. The main thing I need help with right now is getting conference web software installed on Piece. I'll post Bayle's links page as an item. It looks to me like the Open Conference System from UBC is pretty good (http://www.pkp.ubc.ca/ocs/) and it runs under PHP/MySQL. Once it is installed I can do the rest of the work. : :If any of you have time to do this in the next week or so, I could pay the same rate as you are getting for Deme, but we should charge it to a different account. Let me know if you are willing to do this.	2004-12-07 14:52:58	539	0	2
Seems like a bug	andrew	This seems inconsistant behavior. When I click on the link while viewing the Index in the item display, the link opens in a popup window. However, when my item display is currently displaying a link and I click on the link below, the link is reproduced in the designated link area of the item viewer. This action is inconsistant (I think it should reproduce in a popup window every time). I'm using IE 6. Anyone else notice this bug? ~Andrew ------ todd wrote on: 2004-12-07 14:52:58.------ :I just saw that the UBC site loads in item display when I click on it from here. Pretty cool! : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-12-07 14:50:32.------ ::I talked today with Robert Cavalier about our May conference plan. He and I agreed on a general plan. I would like to get a website up for the conference soon. The main thing I need help with right now is getting conference web software installed on Piece. I'll post Bayle's links page as an item. It looks to me like the Open Conference System from UBC is pretty good (http://www.pkp.ubc.ca/ocs/) and it runs under PHP/MySQL. Once it is installed I can do the rest of the work. :: ::If any of you have time to do this in the next week or so, I could pay the same rate as you are getting for Deme, but we should charge it to a different account. Let me know if you are willing to do this.	2004-12-07 15:50:19	541	0	1
Task: "link view consistancy issue"	andrew	When a link is clicked in the comment reader and the item viewer is not displaying a link, the link clicked displays in a popup window. However, when a link is clicked in the comment reader and a link is being displayed in the item viewer, the link clicked displays in the link area of the item viewer. This action is inconsistant and should be remedied.	2004-12-07 15:52:33	17	5	1
Update: "link view consistancy issue"	todd	Updated on December 7th, 2004, 16:03 by todd -Priority changed from 'Low' to 'High'	2004-12-07 16:03:20	543	5	0
Yup, same here	todd	In Moz/Linux. ------ andrew wrote on: 2004-12-07 15:50:19.------ :This seems inconsistant behavior. When I click on the link while viewing the Index in the item display, the link opens in a popup window. However, when my item display is currently displaying a link and I click on the link below, the link is reproduced in the designated link area of the item viewer. This action is inconsistant (I think it should reproduce in a popup window every time). I'm using IE 6. Anyone else notice this bug? : :~Andrew : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-12-07 14:52:58.------ ::I just saw that the UBC site loads in item display when I click on it from here. Pretty cool! :: ::------ todd wrote on: 2004-12-07 14:50:32.------ :::I talked today with Robert Cavalier about our May conference plan. He and I agreed on a general plan. I would like to get a website up for the conference soon. The main thing I need help with right now is getting conference web software installed on Piece. I'll post Bayle's links page as an item. It looks to me like the Open Conference System from UBC is pretty good (http://www.pkp.ubc.ca/ocs/) and it runs under PHP/MySQL. Once it is installed I can do the rest of the work. ::: :::If any of you have time to do this in the next week or so, I could pay the same rate as you are getting for Deme, but we should charge it to a different account. Let me know if you are willing to do this.	2004-12-07 16:10:32	542	0	0
i could but not for a while	brendan	I could do it, but I'll be gone for a while once finals are done and can't do it until next Thursday. Todd, maybe you might want to do it yourself for php/mysql administration practice? (setting up prepackaged web software is a somewhat different task than web programming, but it's something at least) ------ todd wrote on: 2004-12-07 14:50:32.------ :I talked today with Robert Cavalier about our May conference plan. He and I agreed on a general plan. I would like to get a website up for the conference soon. The main thing I need help with right now is getting conference web software installed on Piece. I'll post Bayle's links page as an item. It looks to me like the Open Conference System from UBC is pretty good (http://www.pkp.ubc.ca/ocs/) and it runs under PHP/MySQL. Once it is installed I can do the rest of the work. : :If any of you have time to do this in the next week or so, I could pay the same rate as you are getting for Deme, but we should charge it to a different account. Let me know if you are willing to do this.	2004-12-08 15:50:53	539	0	6
15 - 18	andrew	I could do this somewhere between the 15 - 18 of Dec, so I guess my dates are not anymore helpful than Brendan's. I will have web access between the end of finals and the 15th (i'll be in NYC visiting my sister), so Todd, if you try to take a stab at this on your own, I will be available to answer questions via Deme/E-mail. ~Andrew ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-12-08 15:50:53.------ :I could do it, but I'll be gone for a while once finals are done and can't do it until next Thursday. Todd, maybe you might want to do it yourself for php/mysql administration practice? (setting up prepackaged web software is a somewhat different task than web programming, but it's something at least) : : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-12-07 14:50:32.------ ::I talked today with Robert Cavalier about our May conference plan. He and I agreed on a general plan. I would like to get a website up for the conference soon. The main thing I need help with right now is getting conference web software installed on Piece. I'll post Bayle's links page as an item. It looks to me like the Open Conference System from UBC is pretty good (http://www.pkp.ubc.ca/ocs/) and it runs under PHP/MySQL. Once it is installed I can do the rest of the work. :: ::If any of you have time to do this in the next week or so, I could pay the same rate as you are getting for Deme, but we should charge it to a different account. Let me know if you are willing to do this.	2004-12-08 16:00:14	546	0	0
Well...	todd	I'm willing to take a stab at it, but am worried I'll screw something up on the server, plus this involves Linux and file-system stuff that I haven't studied. If I try it in the next couple of days, will one of you be around to fix it if I break something? ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-12-08 15:50:53.------ :I could do it, but I'll be gone for a while once finals are done and can't do it until next Thursday. Todd, maybe you might want to do it yourself for php/mysql administration practice? (setting up prepackaged web software is a somewhat different task than web programming, but it's something at least) : : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-12-07 14:50:32.------ ::I talked today with Robert Cavalier about our May conference plan. He and I agreed on a general plan. I would like to get a website up for the conference soon. The main thing I need help with right now is getting conference web software installed on Piece. I'll post Bayle's links page as an item. It looks to me like the Open Conference System from UBC is pretty good (http://www.pkp.ubc.ca/ocs/) and it runs under PHP/MySQL. Once it is installed I can do the rest of the work. :: ::If any of you have time to do this in the next week or so, I could pay the same rate as you are getting for Deme, but we should charge it to a different account. Let me know if you are willing to do this.	2004-12-08 16:29:14	546	0	4
i'll try	brendan	i'll try taking a stab at it tonight ------ todd wrote on: 2004-12-08 16:29:14.------ :I'm willing to take a stab at it, but am worried I'll screw something up on the server, plus this involves Linux and file-system stuff that I haven't studied. If I try it in the next couple of days, will one of you be around to fix it if I break something? : :------ brendan wrote on: 2004-12-08 15:50:53.------ ::I could do it, but I'll be gone for a while once finals are done and can't do it until next Thursday. Todd, maybe you might want to do it yourself for php/mysql administration practice? (setting up prepackaged web software is a somewhat different task than web programming, but it's something at least) :: :: ::------ todd wrote on: 2004-12-07 14:50:32.------ :::I talked today with Robert Cavalier about our May conference plan. He and I agreed on a general plan. I would like to get a website up for the conference soon. The main thing I need help with right now is getting conference web software installed on Piece. I'll post Bayle's links page as an item. It looks to me like the Open Conference System from UBC is pretty good (http://www.pkp.ubc.ca/ocs/) and it runs under PHP/MySQL. Once it is installed I can do the rest of the work. ::: :::If any of you have time to do this in the next week or so, I could pay the same rate as you are getting for Deme, but we should charge it to a different account. Let me know if you are willing to do this.	2004-12-08 16:50:21	548	0	3
thanks but...	todd	don't disrupt your finals schedule for this. If it's very involved then it can wait until later next week. ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-12-08 16:50:21.------ :i'll try taking a stab at it tonight : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-12-08 16:29:14.------ ::I'm willing to take a stab at it, but am worried I'll screw something up on the server, plus this involves Linux and file-system stuff that I haven't studied. If I try it in the next couple of days, will one of you be around to fix it if I break something? :: ::------ brendan wrote on: 2004-12-08 15:50:53.------ :::I could do it, but I'll be gone for a while once finals are done and can't do it until next Thursday. Todd, maybe you might want to do it yourself for php/mysql administration practice? (setting up prepackaged web software is a somewhat different task than web programming, but it's something at least) ::: ::: :::------ todd wrote on: 2004-12-07 14:50:32.------ ::::I talked today with Robert Cavalier about our May conference plan. He and I agreed on a general plan. I would like to get a website up for the conference soon. The main thing I need help with right now is getting conference web software installed on Piece. I'll post Bayle's links page as an item. It looks to me like the Open Conference System from UBC is pretty good (http://www.pkp.ubc.ca/ocs/) and it runs under PHP/MySQL. Once it is installed I can do the rest of the work. :::: ::::If any of you have time to do this in the next week or so, I could pay the same rate as you are getting for Deme, but we should charge it to a different account. Let me know if you are willing to do this.	2004-12-08 16:54:04	549	0	2
OCS is set up	brendan	OK, it's set up and ready to be administered (my last final was today, it took only half an hour or so) http://groupspace.org/conf2005/ocs/ http://groupspace.org/conf2005/ocs/admin/ installed into /var/www/html/deme/conf2005/ and the database conf2005_ocs. these url's and file locations can all change if necessary. To log in as "admin", password is "pkpPASS". it looks like it's very cool software. It comes with nifty propaganda pages about open scholarship. Brendan ------ todd wrote on: 2004-12-08 16:54:04.------ :don't disrupt your finals schedule for this. If it's very involved then it can wait until later next week. : :------ brendan wrote on: 2004-12-08 16:50:21.------ ::i'll try taking a stab at it tonight :: ::------ todd wrote on: 2004-12-08 16:29:14.------ :::I'm willing to take a stab at it, but am worried I'll screw something up on the server, plus this involves Linux and file-system stuff that I haven't studied. If I try it in the next couple of days, will one of you be around to fix it if I break something? ::: :::------ brendan wrote on: 2004-12-08 15:50:53.------ ::::I could do it, but I'll be gone for a while once finals are done and can't do it until next Thursday. Todd, maybe you might want to do it yourself for php/mysql administration practice? (setting up prepackaged web software is a somewhat different task than web programming, but it's something at least) :::: :::: ::::------ todd wrote on: 2004-12-07 14:50:32.------ :::::I talked today with Robert Cavalier about our May conference plan. He and I agreed on a general plan. I would like to get a website up for the conference soon. The main thing I need help with right now is getting conference web software installed on Piece. I'll post Bayle's links page as an item. It looks to me like the Open Conference System from UBC is pretty good (http://www.pkp.ubc.ca/ocs/) and it runs under PHP/MySQL. Once it is installed I can do the rest of the work. ::::: :::::If any of you have time to do this in the next week or so, I could pay the same rate as you are getting for Deme, but we should charge it to a different account. Let me know if you are willing to do this.	2004-12-09 01:35:09	550	0	1
Thanks!!	todd	Looks good. In other news, James Fishkin has agreed to give the keynote (!), and we have preliminary approval for a book to be published based on the conference by CSLI/University of Chicago Press. Things are humming along. ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-12-09 01:35:09.------ :OK, it's set up and ready to be administered (my last final was today, it took only half an hour or so) : :http://groupspace.org/conf2005/ocs/ :http://groupspace.org/conf2005/ocs/admin/ : :installed into /var/www/html/deme/conf2005/ and the database conf2005_ocs. these url's and file locations can all change if necessary. : :To log in as "admin", password is "pkpPASS". : :it looks like it's very cool software. It comes with nifty propaganda pages about open scholarship. : :Brendan : : : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-12-08 16:54:04.------ ::don't disrupt your finals schedule for this. If it's very involved then it can wait until later next week. :: ::------ brendan wrote on: 2004-12-08 16:50:21.------ :::i'll try taking a stab at it tonight ::: :::------ todd wrote on: 2004-12-08 16:29:14.------ ::::I'm willing to take a stab at it, but am worried I'll screw something up on the server, plus this involves Linux and file-system stuff that I haven't studied. If I try it in the next couple of days, will one of you be around to fix it if I break something? :::: ::::------ brendan wrote on: 2004-12-08 15:50:53.------ :::::I could do it, but I'll be gone for a while once finals are done and can't do it until next Thursday. Todd, maybe you might want to do it yourself for php/mysql administration practice? (setting up prepackaged web software is a somewhat different task than web programming, but it's something at least) ::::: ::::: :::::------ todd wrote on: 2004-12-07 14:50:32.------ ::::::I talked today with Robert Cavalier about our May conference plan. He and I agreed on a general plan. I would like to get a website up for the conference soon. The main thing I need help with right now is getting conference web software installed on Piece. I'll post Bayle's links page as an item. It looks to me like the Open Conference System from UBC is pretty good (http://www.pkp.ubc.ca/ocs/) and it runs under PHP/MySQL. Once it is installed I can do the rest of the work. :::::: ::::::If any of you have time to do this in the next week or so, I could pay the same rate as you are getting for Deme, but we should charge it to a different account. Let me know if you are willing to do this.	2004-12-09 10:41:31	551	0	0
Link: "New digital divide report"	todd	>From the Bay Area CTC Network list: Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 11:15:38 -0800 From: George Gundrey To: bay-area-ctc@ctcnet.org Subject: [Bay-Area-CTC] Digital Divide Grows Under Bush Administration I just read this and it is very compelling. While I have had a sense that the digital divide is still here, I did not realize that internet access rates have remained flat at 60% in the last 4 years. Cooper does an excellent job of presenting the data and the policies that are keeping it there.	2004-12-09 11:42:11	0	178	0
Time available/budget	todd	From the timesheets I've received and informal communication with Brendan during our last meeting (Brendan - bring me those timesheets!), it looks like we have spent the following out of the 160 hours I allocated to the three of you this quarter: Alex 22 hours Brendan 40 hours (as of last week) Andrew 21.6 hours --------------------------------------------- TOTAL 83.6 hours We had initially said Brendan and Andrew would split an 80-hour position, and Alex would do a full one, but Brendan has used up his allotted 40 hours and Alex and Andrew are well below what we estimated. We have roughly 80 hours still available before we start needing the new funds (which, unofficially, look like they have been approved). We could spend all of that over the break if you like, since the new funds (with a 50 cent raise!) are calculated to last from January through June with 160 hours per quarter again split between the three of you. We have additional money on the EPA.Net side, but I'd like to keep that for Brandi if she needs it, and I have discretionary resources to cope with overflows etc. What I propose is maybe a constrained free-for-all (?). Let's say each of you can spend up to 30 hours between now and the beginning of classes with no questions asked, but once you reach 30 hours, you should post a comment here so we can assess if more hours are available. Does this sound okay?	2004-12-09 12:19:29	0	0	0
Link: "Basecamp project management tool"	todd	Interesting tool, seen as I read through the talks for the Emerging Technology Conference next March (http://conferences.oreillynet.com/pub/w/36/sessions.html).	2004-12-10 12:58:53	0	179	0
Link: "Blogging public documents"	todd	Interesting Deme-like exercise in document-centered discussion.	2004-12-10 13:01:24	0	180	0
Plans for CHI	todd	I've decided, after some deliberation, that we should switch gears a little in submitting to CHI. I had planned to try to put together a Design Expo submission (http://www.chi2005.org/cfp/designexpo.html). Those are due on Monday, and while I think I could put something together over the weekend, my honest feeling after reading the call for papers is that this is not an appropriate venue for us. The reason is that they are really looking for case studies of projects that are farther along in their development cycle than Deme is, where the target users, for example, have actually used the product. We are just too alpha still, and some of our most important planned features are not implemented yet (e.g. email integration), so I think it's premature to try to evaluate Deme's impact. Meanwhile, I've come upon a workshop that is happening at CHI that seems directly relevant to what we are doing, called Beyond Threaded Conversation (http://www.chi2005.org/program/prog_workshops.html#w7). The requirement for submission is just a three page position paper, due January 3. The problem is that they only allow one author per accepted paper to attend. I confirmed that with the organizers, but they also confirmed that we could submit more than one paper. So here's what I propose. I think our project makes two primary contributions at the ideal level: (1) dynamic, cross-frame referencing of comments and items, and (2) the necessity of comprehensive task support for addressing face-to-face bottlenecks. I think we should write up these two ideas as position papers under all our names. If one or both get accepted then I'll take everyone up to CHI, which is really the main goal anyway, and we'll just have to decide who represents us in the workshop. In addition, if any of you want to work on one of the two papers or a third (or fouth), you're welcome to do that. You should all look at the other workshops too, and feel free to submit to them. Does this sound reasonable to everyone?	2004-12-10 13:47:57	0	0	3
sounds reasonable	brendan	that sounds reasonable to me; this workshop certainly makes more sense for us. I can help with #1, cross-frame referencing. I'm less familiar with references & things to say about #2, tasks -- i've kinda gone through existing systems a lot for #1 and have things to say there... brendan ------ todd wrote on: 2004-12-10 13:47:57.------ :I've decided, after some deliberation, that we should switch gears a little in submitting to CHI. I had planned to try to put together a Design Expo submission (http://www.chi2005.org/cfp/designexpo.html). Those are due on Monday, and while I think I could put something together over the weekend, my honest feeling after reading the call for papers is that this is not an appropriate venue for us. The reason is that they are really looking for case studies of projects that are farther along in their development cycle than Deme is, where the target users, for example, have actually used the product. We are just too alpha still, and some of our most important planned features are not implemented yet (e.g. email integration), so I think it's premature to try to evaluate Deme's impact. : :Meanwhile, I've come upon a workshop that is happening at CHI that seems directly relevant to what we are doing, called Beyond Threaded Conversation (http://www.chi2005.org/program/prog_workshops.html#w7). The requirement for submission is just a three page position paper, due January 3. The problem is that they only allow one author per accepted paper to attend. I confirmed that with the organizers, but they also confirmed that we could submit more than one paper. : :So here's what I propose. I think our project makes two primary contributions at the ideal level: (1) dynamic, cross-frame referencing of comments and items, and (2) the necessity of comprehensive task support for addressing face-to-face bottlenecks. I think we should write up these two ideas as position papers under all our names. If one or both get accepted then I'll take everyone up to CHI, which is really the main goal anyway, and we'll just have to decide who represents us in the workshop. In addition, if any of you want to work on one of the two papers or a third (or fouth), you're welcome to do that. You should all look at the other workshops too, and feel free to submit to them. : :Does this sound reasonable to everyone?	2004-12-10 14:32:13	557	0	2
Sounds good	todd	How about if you work on a draft for 1, Brendan, and I can work on 2? We should post each here as documents for group comment. A catchy name for our cross-frame scheme would be cool to have too. ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-12-10 14:32:13.------ :that sounds reasonable to me; this workshop certainly makes more sense for us. I can help with #1, cross-frame referencing. I'm less familiar with references & things to say about #2, tasks -- i've kinda gone through existing systems a lot for #1 and have things to say there... : :brendan : : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-12-10 13:47:57.------ ::I've decided, after some deliberation, that we should switch gears a little in submitting to CHI. I had planned to try to put together a Design Expo submission (http://www.chi2005.org/cfp/designexpo.html). Those are due on Monday, and while I think I could put something together over the weekend, my honest feeling after reading the call for papers is that this is not an appropriate venue for us. The reason is that they are really looking for case studies of projects that are farther along in their development cycle than Deme is, where the target users, for example, have actually used the product. We are just too alpha still, and some of our most important planned features are not implemented yet (e.g. email integration), so I think it's premature to try to evaluate Deme's impact. :: ::Meanwhile, I've come upon a workshop that is happening at CHI that seems directly relevant to what we are doing, called Beyond Threaded Conversation (http://www.chi2005.org/program/prog_workshops.html#w7). The requirement for submission is just a three page position paper, due January 3. The problem is that they only allow one author per accepted paper to attend. I confirmed that with the organizers, but they also confirmed that we could submit more than one paper. :: ::So here's what I propose. I think our project makes two primary contributions at the ideal level: (1) dynamic, cross-frame referencing of comments and items, and (2) the necessity of comprehensive task support for addressing face-to-face bottlenecks. I think we should write up these two ideas as position papers under all our names. If one or both get accepted then I'll take everyone up to CHI, which is really the main goal anyway, and we'll just have to decide who represents us in the workshop. In addition, if any of you want to work on one of the two papers or a third (or fouth), you're welcome to do that. You should all look at the other workshops too, and feel free to submit to them. :: ::Does this sound reasonable to everyone?	2004-12-10 14:37:08	558	0	1
Also, Brendan	todd	Don't worry about producing a draft that's polished or complete. I can work on that - just get your ideas out. :) ------ todd wrote on: 2004-12-10 14:37:08.------ :How about if you work on a draft for 1, Brendan, and I can work on 2? We should post each here as documents for group comment. A catchy name for our cross-frame scheme would be cool to have too. : :------ brendan wrote on: 2004-12-10 14:32:13.------ ::that sounds reasonable to me; this workshop certainly makes more sense for us. I can help with #1, cross-frame referencing. I'm less familiar with references & things to say about #2, tasks -- i've kinda gone through existing systems a lot for #1 and have things to say there... :: ::brendan :: :: ::------ todd wrote on: 2004-12-10 13:47:57.------ :::I've decided, after some deliberation, that we should switch gears a little in submitting to CHI. I had planned to try to put together a Design Expo submission (http://www.chi2005.org/cfp/designexpo.html). Those are due on Monday, and while I think I could put something together over the weekend, my honest feeling after reading the call for papers is that this is not an appropriate venue for us. The reason is that they are really looking for case studies of projects that are farther along in their development cycle than Deme is, where the target users, for example, have actually used the product. We are just too alpha still, and some of our most important planned features are not implemented yet (e.g. email integration), so I think it's premature to try to evaluate Deme's impact. ::: :::Meanwhile, I've come upon a workshop that is happening at CHI that seems directly relevant to what we are doing, called Beyond Threaded Conversation (http://www.chi2005.org/program/prog_workshops.html#w7). The requirement for submission is just a three page position paper, due January 3. The problem is that they only allow one author per accepted paper to attend. I confirmed that with the organizers, but they also confirmed that we could submit more than one paper. ::: :::So here's what I propose. I think our project makes two primary contributions at the ideal level: (1) dynamic, cross-frame referencing of comments and items, and (2) the necessity of comprehensive task support for addressing face-to-face bottlenecks. I think we should write up these two ideas as position papers under all our names. If one or both get accepted then I'll take everyone up to CHI, which is really the main goal anyway, and we'll just have to decide who represents us in the workshop. In addition, if any of you want to work on one of the two papers or a third (or fouth), you're welcome to do that. You should all look at the other workshops too, and feel free to submit to them. ::: :::Does this sound reasonable to everyone?	2004-12-10 21:24:51	559	0	0
Exchange with workshop organizer	todd	Here was my exchange with Derek Hansen, co-organizer of the Beyond Threaded Conversation workshop at CHI. I guess a third topic for a paper could be that what's really powerful is threaded conversation *plus* group document editing. - Todd Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 12:53:40 -0800 (PST) From: Todd Davies gt; To: Derek L. Hansen gt; Subject: Re: question about CHI workshop Derek, Thanks for info, and for taking the time to discuss it with the other coordinators. I am not sure what we will do, but it looks like a great workshop! Todd On Fri, 10 Dec 2004, Derek L. Hansen wrote: > Todd, > > We are glad to hear about your interest in the workshop and highly > encourage you to submit. I discussed your question with the other > workshop coordinators and we all agreed that one of the primary goals of > the conference is to have a broad representation of unique ideas from a > variety of individuals. Our language indicating that only one author > from each proposal would be "invited" was intended to mean invited to > the conference, not invited to present at the conference. I would > suggest that you submit multiple position papers that cover distinct > material if you would like to all attend. Having said that, it is > unlikely, but possible that multiple authors could attend the workshop > depending upon the quality of your submission(s) and the number of > submissions we receive. > > Regards, > Derek Hansen > > > Todd Davies wrote: > > >Dear Derek, > > > >I am considering submitting to your workshop on Beyond Threaded > >Conversation. My question has to do with this wording in your workshop > >description (http://www-personal.si.umich.edu/%7eshakmatt/CHI2005/): > > > >"Only one author will be invited for each accepted position paper. Groups > >with multiple ideas may submit several position papers." > > > >Does the word "invited" above refer to attendance at the workshop, or just > >to presentation? I am working with three students, and would like them to > >be able to attend (i.e. be present) if we are accepted into the workshop, > >but the description makes it sound like that would require submitting > >multiple papers and having each one accepted. We do have multiple ideas, > >but I am not sure if that is the right approach. Can you clarify? > > > >Thanks, > >Todd	2004-12-10 21:30:37	0	0	0
Link: "Conference website"	todd	A tentative site for Online Deliberation 2005 is up. I'm awaiting feedback from Robert Cavalier and Peter Shane. I've listed Brendan as technical contact for the site (hope that's okay). Comments welcome - this is not public yet.	2004-12-16 23:37:58	0	181	3
Discussion forum	todd	Also, I've set up a Deme group for the conference. You have to use some outside forum software if you want to have discussions linked within the PKP system, so I figured why not ours. I didn't make it accessible to anonymous users, though. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-12-16 23:37:58.------ :A tentative site for Online Deliberation 2005 is up. I'm awaiting feedback from Robert Cavalier and Peter Shane. I've listed Brendan as technical contact for the site (hope that's okay). Comments welcome - this is not public yet.	2004-12-16 23:39:56	562	181	0
looks great!	brendan	this looks wonderful! technical question: is the top main page going to the the current one shown by OCS? most of the main pages look like they're already in the OCS system. If that's the case, I can rework the URL to the simpler gs.o/conf2005 instead of gs.o/conf2005/ocs . ------ todd wrote on: 2004-12-16 23:37:58.------ :A tentative site for Online Deliberation 2005 is up. I'm awaiting feedback from Robert Cavalier and Peter Shane. I've listed Brendan as technical contact for the site (hope that's okay). Comments welcome - this is not public yet.	2004-12-17 09:09:36	562	181	1
conference homepage	todd	Yeah, I'm thinking we should just make that the homepage, unless someone wants to work up a snazzy html front page. The rework would be useful - but I've given out the /ocs address to a few people for inspection who may click on it, so it would need to be symlinked. I was going to try to buy a domain like onlinedeliberation.org or .net. Can you believe that all three of the top domains (.com also) are taken, even though none of them are in use? There's some serious speculating going on out there. I know that if I contact one of these people they are going to want hundreds, maybe thousands of dollars. I could get online-deliberation.org or .net (with a dash in the middle) for $8.50, but am not sure it's worth it. The idea would be to give it to the society that gets created from this conference, but maybe we should wait to see what people want to call the thing. ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-12-17 09:09:36.------ :this looks wonderful! : :technical question: is the top main page going to the the current one shown by OCS? most of the main pages look like they're already in the OCS system. If that's the case, I can rework the URL to the simpler gs.o/conf2005 instead of gs.o/conf2005/ocs . : : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-12-16 23:37:58.------ ::A tentative site for Online Deliberation 2005 is up. I'm awaiting feedback from Robert Cavalier and Peter Shane. I've listed Brendan as technical contact for the site (hope that's okay). Comments welcome - this is not public yet.	2004-12-17 13:03:56	564	181	0
Link: "Introduction to Open Source Communities"	todd	Useful report by Eugene Eric Kim at Blue Oxen, summarizing earlier studies of open source projects and adding a couple of case studies.	2004-12-19 21:42:23	0	182	0
Link: "Cool web mention"	todd	We got a mention in the UK Guardian Online	2004-12-22 10:40:33	0	183	0
Link: "Another web mention"	todd	We were the "featured website" in "Nonprofit News from Nathan". Impressive little piece, mostly quoting from us - scroll to the bottom.	2004-12-22 10:44:55	0	184	0
Link: "commentary in french"	todd	Scroll down: I think this is complimentary.:)	2004-12-22 11:05:50	0	185	2
okay, here's a translation	todd	Likes our functionality a lot but finds interface "minable", which is untranslated on the machine version, but means: "dead-loss (Infml), no-hope (Infml), wretched, miserable job, life, paltry salary, hopeless (Infml), useless (Infml) work, person, seedy place" Those french! :) Oh well, we know we have work to do there anyway. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-12-22 11:05:50.------ :Scroll down: I think this is complimentary.:)	2004-12-22 11:10:46	569	185	1
Sorry, forgot to post link	todd	to the translation: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://ceobloggers.xwiki.com/xwiki/bin/view/Main/WhatsNew%3Fdiff%3D1&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522groupspace.org%2522%26start%3D30%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN ------ todd wrote on: 2004-12-22 11:10:46.------ :Likes our functionality a lot but finds interface "minable", which is untranslated on the machine version, but means: "dead-loss (Infml), no-hope (Infml), wretched, miserable job, life, paltry salary, hopeless (Infml), useless (Infml) work, person, seedy place" : :Those french! :) Oh well, we know we have work to do there anyway. : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-12-22 11:05:50.------ ::Scroll down: I think this is complimentary.:)	2004-12-22 11:14:14	570	185	0
Temporary favicon	todd	How about if we just use the Stanford "S" favicon for now on Groupspace.org sites, while we wait to design one of our own? It's on the Stanford homepage.	2004-12-22 21:28:22	0	0	2
Task: "Blogging news"	todd	Here's a fun project - turn our news page into a blog, with an RSS feed people can subscribe to. This would make it easier to edit, and link our contact list automatically to announcements of new developments.	2004-12-23 00:19:52	17	5	0
it's there	brendan	I stuck in the stanford icon into both groupspace.org and piece.stanford.edu. the teal square has been saved; the new icon isn't appearing yet on my web browser but i assume it will soon. ------ todd wrote on: 2004-12-22 21:28:22.------ :How about if we just use the Stanford "S" favicon for now on Groupspace.org sites, while we wait to design one of our own? It's on the Stanford homepage.	2004-12-29 13:06:00	572	0	1
Yup, I see it here	todd	It's showing up now. Thanks, Brendan. ------ brendan wrote on: 2004-12-29 13:06:00.------ :I stuck in the stanford icon into both groupspace.org and piece.stanford.edu. the teal square has been saved; the new icon isn't appearing yet on my web browser but i assume it will soon. : :------ todd wrote on: 2004-12-22 21:28:22.------ ::How about if we just use the Stanford "S" favicon for now on Groupspace.org sites, while we wait to design one of our own? It's on the Stanford homepage.	2004-12-29 13:17:41	574	0	0
New Document: "stick figure favicon (group under roof)"	brendan	I was thinking that we needed an icon for the group homepage, then thought it might make a decent favicon too.	2005-01-01 22:50:07	0	187	2
I like it!	todd	Cute - maybe stick figures could come up a tad higher? ------ brendan wrote on: 2005-01-01 22:50:07.------ :I was thinking that we needed an icon for the group homepage, then thought it might make a decent favicon too.	2005-01-01 23:14:04	576	187	1
Then again..	todd	it's probably fine the way it is. I just want people to be able to recognize the peeps. ------ todd wrote on: 2005-01-01 23:14:04.------ :Cute - maybe stick figures could come up a tad higher? : :------ brendan wrote on: 2005-01-01 22:50:07.------ ::I was thinking that we needed an icon for the group homepage, then thought it might make a decent favicon too.	2005-01-01 23:15:46	577	187	0
Restructured Deme now on CVS!	brendan	happy new year! I went to work on email integration this break and all I got was a lousy restructuring. But it's basically complete! do a "cvs checkout deme-cvs" and look around. README.txt and doc/restructure.txt are very important; and a nascent doc/hacking.txt. I hope it will be easy to integrate changes back into the tree. The only real change to the server I can think of is the addition of the fine /var/www/demedatadirs (see the README there) My own install is at http://www.groupspace.org/devbren/r2/deme/ with the group http://www.groupspace.org/devbren/r2/deme/groups/thegrp but really, there's not a ton of new things to see. If we want a release, this could be 0.4.0...	2005-01-02 02:21:31	0	0	1
Re: Restructured Deme now on CVS!	todd	Thanks, Brendan - I'm glad this is out of the way. Seems we should poke around a bit before doing a public release. How about aiming for a week from now? ------ brendan wrote on: 2005-01-02 02:21:31.------ :happy new year! I went to work on email integration this break and all I got was a lousy restructuring. But it's basically complete! : :do a "cvs checkout deme-cvs" and look around. README.txt and doc/restructure.txt are very important; and a nascent doc/hacking.txt. I hope it will be easy to integrate changes back into the tree. : :The only real change to the server I can think of is the addition of the fine /var/www/demedatadirs (see the README there) : :My own install is at http://www.groupspace.org/devbren/r2/deme/ with the group http://www.groupspace.org/devbren/r2/deme/groups/thegrp but really, there's not a ton of new things to see. : :If we want a release, this could be 0.4.0...	2005-01-02 14:23:50	579	0	0
New Document: "CHI Workshop paper"	todd	Here's a paper for the Beyond Threaded Conversation workshop. It's due tomorrow, so I'll need any feedback very soon. I created this in regular MS Word, just so ya know. :)	2005-01-02 23:03:43	0	188	0
New Document: "CHI workshop submission (final)"	todd	I cleaned it up, toned down the rhetoric slightly. Hope you like it. If they accept this, most likely only one of us will be able to attend the workshop, but we can all go to CHI and would all be listed as co-authors on this paper.	2005-01-03 13:45:57	0	189	0
Opening up POD groups?	todd	Is there any chance of being able to open up old POD groups, e.g. by placing them in a directory with the old software? ------ todd wrote on: 2004-08-19 16:49:18.------ :This is the link to the internal group for discussions from January through early July, 2004.	2005-01-03 18:16:35	87	39	0
Meetings	todd	Hey guys, I'd like to start meeting again beginning this week. What is everyone's schedule like? State your conflicts, and we'll try to find a good time. - Todd	2005-01-03 18:18:15	0	0	17
Task: "Preserve uploaded doc filenames"	todd	Currently the name of an uploaded document file is changed by Deme by joining the item index name of the item with the name of the uploaded file. Would be better just to use the uploaded filename, checking for duplication and alerting the user.	2005-01-03 18:31:02	17	5	0
don't know yet	brendan	I won't be sure of my conflicts until a few days of shopping go by --- 1:15-3:45 Th is bad definitely. Friday morning, strangely, is completely open for me. ------ todd wrote on: 2005-01-03 18:18:15.------ :Hey guys, : :I'd like to start meeting again beginning this week. What is everyone's schedule like? State your conflicts, and we'll try to find a good time. - Todd	2005-01-04 01:02:37	584	0	16
also still working it out	andrew	Yea, I'm also shaky on times right now. One of my classes was canceled so I have lots of shopping to do to find a replacement. Our usual 3:15 TH time is definitely out of play. Monday and Wednesday afternoons are currently free, but I don't know how long that will last. ~Andrew ------ brendan wrote on: 2005-01-04 01:02:37.------ :I won't be sure of my conflicts until a few days of shopping go by --- 1:15-3:45 Th is bad definitely. Friday morning, strangely, is completely open for me. : :------ todd wrote on: 2005-01-03 18:18:15.------ ::Hey guys, :: ::I'd like to start meeting again beginning this week. What is everyone's schedule like? State your conflicts, and we'll try to find a good time. - Todd	2005-01-04 09:44:02	586	0	15
Re: also still working it out	todd	How about Friday at 2:45 for this week? ------ andrew wrote on: 2005-01-04 09:44:02.------ :Yea, I'm also shaky on times right now. One of my classes was canceled so I have lots of shopping to do to find a replacement. Our usual 3:15 TH time is definitely out of play. Monday and Wednesday afternoons are currently free, but I don't know how long that will last. : :~Andrew : :------ brendan wrote on: 2005-01-04 01:02:37.------ ::I won't be sure of my conflicts until a few days of shopping go by --- 1:15-3:45 Th is bad definitely. Friday morning, strangely, is completely open for me. :: ::------ todd wrote on: 2005-01-03 18:18:15.------ :::Hey guys, ::: :::I'd like to start meeting again beginning this week. What is everyone's schedule like? State your conflicts, and we'll try to find a good time. - Todd	2005-01-04 18:43:57	587	0	14
not till 3:30 fri	brendan	I'm not available until 3:30pm on Friday. morning times on thurs or friday perhaps? ------ todd wrote on: 2005-01-04 18:43:57.------ :How about Friday at 2:45 for this week? : :------ andrew wrote on: 2005-01-04 09:44:02.------ ::Yea, I'm also shaky on times right now. One of my classes was canceled so I have lots of shopping to do to find a replacement. Our usual 3:15 TH time is definitely out of play. Monday and Wednesday afternoons are currently free, but I don't know how long that will last. :: ::~Andrew :: ::------ brendan wrote on: 2005-01-04 01:02:37.------ :::I won't be sure of my conflicts until a few days of shopping go by --- 1:15-3:45 Th is bad definitely. Friday morning, strangely, is completely open for me. ::: :::------ todd wrote on: 2005-01-03 18:18:15.------ ::::Hey guys, :::: ::::I'd like to start meeting again beginning this week. What is everyone's schedule like? State your conflicts, and we'll try to find a good time. - Todd	2005-01-05 02:29:37	588	0	13
morning times	andrew	can do morning times thursdays (however, I think it would conflict with Todd's office hours). 3:30 this friday works fine, but if it would be possible to move in the future, I'd appreciate that. I don't have a hard conflict, but I go skiing a few weekends every year, and I'd like to skip traffic by hitting the road around noon on fridays. ~Andrew ------ brendan wrote on: 2005-01-05 02:29:37.------ :I'm not available until 3:30pm on Friday. : :morning times on thurs or friday perhaps? : :------ todd wrote on: 2005-01-04 18:43:57.------ ::How about Friday at 2:45 for this week? :: ::------ andrew wrote on: 2005-01-04 09:44:02.------ :::Yea, I'm also shaky on times right now. One of my classes was canceled so I have lots of shopping to do to find a replacement. Our usual 3:15 TH time is definitely out of play. Monday and Wednesday afternoons are currently free, but I don't know how long that will last. ::: :::~Andrew ::: :::------ brendan wrote on: 2005-01-04 01:02:37.------ ::::I won't be sure of my conflicts until a few days of shopping go by --- 1:15-3:45 Th is bad definitely. Friday morning, strangely, is completely open for me. :::: ::::------ todd wrote on: 2005-01-03 18:18:15.------ :::::Hey guys, ::::: :::::I'd like to start meeting again beginning this week. What is everyone's schedule like? State your conflicts, and we'll try to find a good time. - Todd	2005-01-05 09:47:44	589	0	12
Re: morning times	todd	I'm holding Friday mornings for meetings with Brandi and Rolando, which looks like it might be the best time for those, but if that changes then Friday mornings at, say, 11 would work for me. I'd rather not change my office hours because I've been keeping them the same every quarter (T,W,Th 10:30-12). A weekly Monday meeting would work for me - late morning or early afternoon would be best. ------ andrew wrote on: 2005-01-05 09:47:44.------ :can do morning times thursdays (however, I think it would conflict with Todd's office hours). 3:30 this friday works fine, but if it would be possible to move in the future, I'd appreciate that. I don't have a hard conflict, but I go skiing a few weekends every year, and I'd like to skip traffic by hitting the road around noon on fridays. : :~Andrew : :------ brendan wrote on: 2005-01-05 02:29:37.------ ::I'm not available until 3:30pm on Friday. :: ::morning times on thurs or friday perhaps? :: ::------ todd wrote on: 2005-01-04 18:43:57.------ :::How about Friday at 2:45 for this week? ::: :::------ andrew wrote on: 2005-01-04 09:44:02.------ ::::Yea, I'm also shaky on times right now. One of my classes was canceled so I have lots of shopping to do to find a replacement. Our usual 3:15 TH time is definitely out of play. Monday and Wednesday afternoons are currently free, but I don't know how long that will last. :::: ::::~Andrew :::: ::::------ brendan wrote on: 2005-01-04 01:02:37.------ :::::I won't be sure of my conflicts until a few days of shopping go by --- 1:15-3:45 Th is bad definitely. Friday morning, strangely, is completely open for me. ::::: :::::------ todd wrote on: 2005-01-03 18:18:15.------ ::::::Hey guys, :::::: ::::::I'd like to start meeting again beginning this week. What is everyone's schedule like? State your conflicts, and we'll try to find a good time. - Todd	2005-01-05 10:05:19	590	0	11
Afternoons?	alex	Best times for me are (until I know of sections) Monday and Wednesday afternoons. I have class MWF 10-12, and TuTh 9-11 and most of the afternoon. Tu or Th 11 is doable, as is Friday afternoons in theory ... however I do enjoy my long weekends.	2005-01-05 12:29:49	591	0	10
How about Mondays at 1:30?	todd	I have a meeting with Fishkin and Iyengar at 4 this Friday, so I can't miss that. Is Monday at 1:30 okay with everyone? ------ alex wrote on: 2005-01-05 12:29:49.------ :Best times for me are (until I know of sections) Monday and Wednesday afternoons. I have class MWF 10-12, and TuTh 9-11 and most of the afternoon. Tu or Th 11 is doable, as is Friday afternoons in theory ... however I do enjoy my long weekends.	2005-01-05 13:22:29	592	0	9
works for me	andrew	as stated above. Works for me. ------ todd wrote on: 2005-01-05 13:22:29.------ :I have a meeting with Fishkin and Iyengar at 4 this Friday, so I can't miss that. Is Monday at 1:30 okay with everyone? : :------ alex wrote on: 2005-01-05 12:29:49.------ ::Best times for me are (until I know of sections) Monday and Wednesday afternoons. I have class MWF 10-12, and TuTh 9-11 and most of the afternoon. Tu or Th 11 is doable, as is Friday afternoons in theory ... however I do enjoy my long weekends.	2005-01-05 13:30:16	593	0	0
Sounds good for now!	alex	I have a few sections that have yet to be schedule, but I'll try to schedule them around this time. ------ todd wrote on: 2005-01-05 13:22:29.------ :I have a meeting with Fishkin and Iyengar at 4 this Friday, so I can't miss that. Is Monday at 1:30 okay with everyone? : :------ alex wrote on: 2005-01-05 12:29:49.------ ::Best times for me are (until I know of sections) Monday and Wednesday afternoons. I have class MWF 10-12, and TuTh 9-11 and most of the afternoon. Tu or Th 11 is doable, as is Friday afternoons in theory ... however I do enjoy my long weekends.	2005-01-05 16:50:09	593	0	7
monday afternoon maybe	brendan	I may be taking a class on MW that ends at 2:05. It's possible that won't happen though. 2:15 perhaps? ------ alex wrote on: 2005-01-05 16:50:09.------ :I have a few sections that have yet to be schedule, but I'll try to schedule them around this time. : :------ todd wrote on: 2005-01-05 13:22:29.------ ::I have a meeting with Fishkin and Iyengar at 4 this Friday, so I can't miss that. Is Monday at 1:30 okay with everyone? :: ::------ alex wrote on: 2005-01-05 12:29:49.------ :::Best times for me are (until I know of sections) Monday and Wednesday afternoons. I have class MWF 10-12, and TuTh 9-11 and most of the afternoon. Tu or Th 11 is doable, as is Friday afternoons in theory ... however I do enjoy my long weekends.	2005-01-05 17:17:17	595	0	6
Re: monday afternoon maybe	todd	Let's go with Monday at 2:15 for next week. I would prefer 1:30 in general if that turns out to be possible. See you all next Monday. ------ brendan wrote on: 2005-01-05 17:17:17.------ :I may be taking a class on MW that ends at 2:05. It's possible that won't happen though. 2:15 perhaps? : :------ alex wrote on: 2005-01-05 16:50:09.------ ::I have a few sections that have yet to be schedule, but I'll try to schedule them around this time. :: ::------ todd wrote on: 2005-01-05 13:22:29.------ :::I have a meeting with Fishkin and Iyengar at 4 this Friday, so I can't miss that. Is Monday at 1:30 okay with everyone? ::: :::------ alex wrote on: 2005-01-05 12:29:49.------ ::::Best times for me are (until I know of sections) Monday and Wednesday afternoons. I have class MWF 10-12, and TuTh 9-11 and most of the afternoon. Tu or Th 11 is doable, as is Friday afternoons in theory ... however I do enjoy my long weekends.	2005-01-05 17:30:59	596	0	5
Discussion Item: "Sourceforge email"	alex	Don't know if anyone else got this email. What do you all say: \tFrom: \t noreply@sourceforge.net \tSubject: \tNotice of intended takeover for project pod \tDate: \tJanuary 7, 2005 11:47:04 AM PST \tTo: \t someone@stanford.edu Greetings, Notice sent on: 2005-01-07 14:47 As follows is a time-sensitive (14 day expiry) notice from SF.net Staff to all administrators of the pod project. As per SourceForge.net policies, this message is being sent to notify you that a request has been received to take over the pod project, for which you are presently listed as an administrator. See the links provided on your My SF.net page for further details on the nature of this takeover request. SourceForge.net Staff have reviewed the current usage of this project space and have determined that the project has not yet made any substantial file releases or produced any other materials that we consider vital to retain. If you intend to continue development in this project space, it is vital that you login to the SourceForge.net site and go to the My SF.net page for additional details on how to opt-out. If you (or another member of your project team) do not opt-out of this takeover in the next 14 days, control of the pod project will be transferred to the submitter of the request. The My SF.net page may be accessed at: https://sourceforge.net/my/ Thank you, SourceForge.net Staff staff@sourceforge.net	2005-01-07 12:21:36	0	191	2
just got it -- but no problem	brendan	I just got it too. However, we now have a new project named "deme" on sourceforge, so it's OK. Maybe this indicates we should actually use the new one before it's taken away -- upload some of our old tarballs on it or something. brendan ------ alex wrote on: 2005-01-07 12:21:36.------ :Don't know if anyone else got this email. What do you all say: : :\tFrom: \t noreply@sourceforge.net :\tSubject: \tNotice of intended takeover for project pod :\tDate: \tJanuary 7, 2005 11:47:04 AM PST :\tTo: \t someone@stanford.edu : : :Greetings, : :Notice sent on: 2005-01-07 14:47 : :As follows is a time-sensitive (14 day expiry) notice from SF.net Staff :to all administrators of the pod project. : :As per SourceForge.net policies, this message is being sent to notify you :that a request has been received to take over the pod :project, for which you are presently listed as an administrator. : :See the links provided on your My SF.net page for further details :on the nature of this takeover request. : :SourceForge.net Staff have reviewed the current usage of this project :space and have determined that the project has not yet made any substantial :file releases or produced any other materials that we consider vital to :retain. : :If you intend to continue development in this project space, it is vital :that you login to the SourceForge.net site and go to the My SF.net page :for additional details on how to opt-out. : :If you (or another member of your project team) do not opt-out of this :takeover in the next 14 days, control of the pod :project will be transferred to the submitter of the request. : :The My SF.net page may be accessed at: https://sourceforge.net/my/ : :Thank you, : :SourceForge.net Staff :staff@sourceforge.net : : :	2005-01-07 15:12:21	598	191	1
New Document: "issues & part of 1/10 agenda"	brendan	i spoke to todd 5 minutes today when i was doing my AF office hours thing, and came up with a few things to talk about on monday, or talk about here. [i guess i have time to work on deme this weekend thanks to a cancelled ski trip]	2005-01-07 15:34:28	0	192	0
making mailing list	brendan	We should slap up a deme-announce mailing list, too, from the people who've filled out our interest form. deme-announce@lists.stanford.edu or deme-announce@lists.sourceforge.net are possible...	2005-01-07 16:48:57	0	193	1
Yes, let's use deme.sourceforge	todd	I'd like us to make that the home site for Deme, with a link to Groupspace.org as a prototype hosting site. ------ brendan wrote on: 2005-01-07 15:12:21.------ :I just got it too. However, we now have a new project named "deme" on sourceforge, so it's OK. Maybe this indicates we should actually use the new one before it's taken away -- upload some of our old tarballs on it or something. : :brendan : : :------ alex wrote on: 2005-01-07 12:21:36.------ ::Don't know if anyone else got this email. What do you all say: :: ::\tFrom: \t noreply@sourceforge.net ::\tSubject: \tNotice of intended takeover for project pod ::\tDate: \tJanuary 7, 2005 11:47:04 AM PST ::\tTo: \t someone@stanford.edu :: :: ::Greetings, :: ::Notice sent on: 2005-01-07 14:47 :: ::As follows is a time-sensitive (14 day expiry) notice from SF.net Staff ::to all administrators of the pod project. :: ::As per SourceForge.net policies, this message is being sent to notify you ::that a request has been received to take over the pod ::project, for which you are presently listed as an administrator. :: ::See the links provided on your My SF.net page for further details ::on the nature of this takeover request. :: ::SourceForge.net Staff have reviewed the current usage of this project ::space and have determined that the project has not yet made any substantial ::file releases or produced any other materials that we consider vital to ::retain. :: ::If you intend to continue development in this project space, it is vital ::that you login to the SourceForge.net site and go to the My SF.net page ::for additional details on how to opt-out. :: ::If you (or another member of your project team) do not opt-out of this ::takeover in the next 14 days, control of the pod ::project will be transferred to the submitter of the request. :: ::The My SF.net page may be accessed at: https://sourceforge.net/my/ :: ::Thank you, :: ::SourceForge.net Staff ::staff@sourceforge.net :: :: ::	2005-01-07 18:08:33	599	191	0
Looks good	todd	I think all of this looks good, Brendan - I'd say feel free to go ahead with these things. I'd also like to discuss (here or on Monday)... Everyone's work plan for this quarter (including email integration, Deme 0.3 tasks, and a new release) Deme development conference - should we try to do it in February or wait until later? Icon/favicon - Is everyone happy with Brendan's design? (respond online if you want) Plans for Online Deliberation conference Timesheets/account numbers	2005-01-07 18:26:09	0	194	0
Let's go with the Sourceforge list	todd	------ brendan wrote on: 2005-01-07 16:48:57.------ :We should slap up a deme-announce mailing list, too, from the people who've filled out our interest form. deme-announce@lists.stanford.edu or deme-announce@lists.sourceforge.net are possible...	2005-01-07 18:26:45	601	193	0
Link: "Groupserver.org"	todd	Another bit of competition, being used now my e-democracy.org (Steve Clift) for its forums (http://forums.e-democracy.org). It's nowhere near as functional as Deme, and really contains nothing novel as far as I can tell, but the look/feel is nice and professional.	2005-01-08 09:49:39	0	195	0
others?	brendan	Any other fields that would be good to add to user profiles? About Me: Homepage: Picture: (trickier to implement, lower priority to do) Contact: Phone number(s): Email (already have) i can also think of fields that would be more useful for specific groups -- for the online delib organizers, an Institution: or Affiliation: field might be useful, but implementing such a specific per-group system might be cumbersome?	2005-01-08 14:16:20	0	196	4
Re: others?	todd	I'd add: Address (subsumes institution) As a caution, in planning for the future: we may eventually want people to be able to customize their profile for each group they are a member of. For example, if we implement the stances and roles idea from my musing a few months back, that could vary for a user across groups. ------ brendan wrote on: 2005-01-08 14:16:20.------ :Any other fields that would be good to add to user profiles? : :About Me: :Homepage: :Picture: (trickier to implement, lower priority to do) : :Contact: : Phone number(s): : Email (already have) : : :i can also think of fields that would be more useful for specific groups -- for the online delib organizers, an Institution: or Affiliation: field might be useful, but implementing such a specific per-group system might be cumbersome?	2005-01-08 15:17:23	606	196	3
Also...	todd	Be good to include an IM address field. ------ todd wrote on: 2005-01-08 15:17:23.------ :I'd add: : :Address (subsumes institution) : :As a caution, in planning for the future: we may eventually want people to be able to customize their profile for each group they are a member of. For example, if we implement the stances and roles idea from my musing a few months back, that could vary for a user across groups. : :------ brendan wrote on: 2005-01-08 14:16:20.------ ::Any other fields that would be good to add to user profiles? :: ::About Me: ::Homepage: ::Picture: (trickier to implement, lower priority to do) :: ::Contact: :: Phone number(s): :: Email (already have) :: :: ::i can also think of fields that would be more useful for specific groups -- for the online delib organizers, an Institution: or Affiliation: field might be useful, but implementing such a specific per-group system might be cumbersome?	2005-01-08 17:30:03	607	196	0
Membership vs profile	todd	Not sure what the database looks like now, but I see that Yahoo Groups separates the membership info for each user in each group (email options, etc.) from the user's profile, which applies across groups. We should do a similar split. Email options are one thing that should be group-specific. ------ todd wrote on: 2005-01-08 15:17:23.------ :I'd add: : :Address (subsumes institution) : :As a caution, in planning for the future: we may eventually want people to be able to customize their profile for each group they are a member of. For example, if we implement the stances and roles idea from my musing a few months back, that could vary for a user across groups. : :------ brendan wrote on: 2005-01-08 14:16:20.------ ::Any other fields that would be good to add to user profiles? :: ::About Me: ::Homepage: ::Picture: (trickier to implement, lower priority to do) :: ::Contact: :: Phone number(s): :: Email (already have) :: :: ::i can also think of fields that would be more useful for specific groups -- for the online delib organizers, an Institution: or Affiliation: field might be useful, but implementing such a specific per-group system might be cumbersome?	2005-01-08 17:59:52	607	196	0
Privacy options	todd	I forgot also about privacy options for profiles. Default should be that a profile is only viewable by a registered Deme user. Ideally, though, users should be able to set privacy level for each field, a la the symsys website. Levels could include admin only, group only (limited to members of groups of which user is a member), registered users only (all Deme users), and anyone. For now, I think it's sufficient to restrict access to registered Deme users in all cases if there isn't time to create the options. ------ todd wrote on: 2005-01-08 15:17:23.------ :I'd add: : :Address (subsumes institution) : :As a caution, in planning for the future: we may eventually want people to be able to customize their profile for each group they are a member of. For example, if we implement the stances and roles idea from my musing a few months back, that could vary for a user across groups. : :------ brendan wrote on: 2005-01-08 14:16:20.------ ::Any other fields that would be good to add to user profiles? :: ::About Me: ::Homepage: ::Picture: (trickier to implement, lower priority to do) :: ::Contact: :: Phone number(s): :: Email (already have) :: :: ::i can also think of fields that would be more useful for specific groups -- for the online delib organizers, an Institution: or Affiliation: field might be useful, but implementing such a specific per-group system might be cumbersome?	2005-01-09 13:20:07	607	196	0
list-only subscribe	todd	A useful feature of Yahoo! Groups is that when people receive an invitation to a group, the link takes invitee to a page that gives them a choice between joining the group (stating this requires registration on Yahoo Groups and gives access to full group resources/website) or, alternatively, joining the email list only. This would be good to implement so people who don't want to remember another password but want to be on an email list can join. I realize it bifurcates membership, but my hope would be that users will see what they are missing once they are on the list and then join Deme/Groupspace.org. That option should always be given in the tail of email messages from the group, with the link to change membership option.	2005-01-09 13:30:24	0	197	0
Link: "TouchGraph"	todd	I just found out about this tool, typed in Groupspace.org and got a nice graph.	2005-01-09 20:33:24	0	198	0
Problem with Monday	alex	I can no longer make it to the meeting Monday. I have to take a proctored exam tomorrow for a job application (Epic Systems in Wisconsin). It was supposed to be Saturday but they pushed it back. It's at the Palo Alto library and I'll be back after 5 if you want to wait until then. But I'm flexible for whatever assignments you all would like me to undertake this quarter if you want to meet without me.	2005-01-09 22:40:00	597	0	4
i can do 5...	brendan	I can do 5 -- or even Monday evening -- but I'm guessing Todd won't make 5 due to his meeting ------ alex wrote on: 2005-01-09 22:40:00.------ :I can no longer make it to the meeting Monday. I have to take a proctored exam tomorrow for a job application (Epic Systems in Wisconsin). It was supposed to be Saturday but they pushed it back. It's at the Palo Alto library and I'll be back after 5 if you want to wait until then. But I'm flexible for whatever assignments you all would like me to undertake this quarter if you want to meet without me. :	2005-01-10 00:21:18	613	0	3
Okay - 5:15 today?	todd	Can everyone make it at 5:15 today? Looks like Brendan's okay. Alex, will you be back by then? Andrew? ------ brendan wrote on: 2005-01-10 00:21:18.------ :I can do 5 -- or even Monday evening -- but I'm guessing Todd won't make 5 due to his meeting : :------ alex wrote on: 2005-01-09 22:40:00.------ ::I can no longer make it to the meeting Monday. I have to take a proctored exam tomorrow for a job application (Epic Systems in Wisconsin). It was supposed to be Saturday but they pushed it back. It's at the Palo Alto library and I'll be back after 5 if you want to wait until then. But I'm flexible for whatever assignments you all would like me to undertake this quarter if you want to meet without me. ::	2005-01-10 09:35:36	614	0	2
I can make 5:15	andrew	5:15's fine ------ todd wrote on: 2005-01-10 09:35:36.------ :Can everyone make it at 5:15 today? Looks like Brendan's okay. Alex, will you be back by then? Andrew? : :------ brendan wrote on: 2005-01-10 00:21:18.------ ::I can do 5 -- or even Monday evening -- but I'm guessing Todd won't make 5 due to his meeting :: ::------ alex wrote on: 2005-01-09 22:40:00.------ :::I can no longer make it to the meeting Monday. I have to take a proctored exam tomorrow for a job application (Epic Systems in Wisconsin). It was supposed to be Saturday but they pushed it back. It's at the Palo Alto library and I'll be back after 5 if you want to wait until then. But I'm flexible for whatever assignments you all would like me to undertake this quarter if you want to meet without me. :::	2005-01-10 13:03:28	615	0	1
Left message for Alex	todd	I left a message on Alex's cell phone, so hopefully he'll get it in time. Let's meet in my office at 5:15 in any case. See you then. ------ andrew wrote on: 2005-01-10 13:03:28.------ :5:15's fine : :------ todd wrote on: 2005-01-10 09:35:36.------ ::Can everyone make it at 5:15 today? Looks like Brendan's okay. Alex, will you be back by then? Andrew? :: ::------ brendan wrote on: 2005-01-10 00:21:18.------ :::I can do 5 -- or even Monday evening -- but I'm guessing Todd won't make 5 due to his meeting ::: :::------ alex wrote on: 2005-01-09 22:40:00.------ ::::I can no longer make it to the meeting Monday. I have to take a proctored exam tomorrow for a job application (Epic Systems in Wisconsin). It was supposed to be Saturday but they pushed it back. It's at the Palo Alto library and I'll be back after 5 if you want to wait until then. But I'm flexible for whatever assignments you all would like me to undertake this quarter if you want to meet without me. ::::	2005-01-10 13:30:03	616	0	0